several things here brian . . .

yes , keep him on a long line if he will not absolutely return either a straight recall , or a retrieve .

now , about the tug . . .

tug with him while you move backwards . if you allow him to have a " win " , does he keep coming towards you with it to play tug some more ?

if you ask for an " out " , will he immediately re-engage if you present him with the ring again ? he shouldn't be letting go spontaneously , but if he does , immediately present him with another opportunity to tug . do not say " out " if he has released the tug on his own .

if those good things are happening , then you can try a short ( less than a meter ) toss and see how that goes . take up the line so that you can draw him towards you with no fuss should he draw away instead . keep it all light and fun . this is NOT " obedience " .

as for the bike chasing , has he learned " leave it ! " ?

that is a behaviour that you can mark and reward , either with food or the tug . the idea being that " i don't want you to play with that , i've got something better here . " you are trying to plant a seed in the dogs head that grows into " this guy is so much fun , why would i want to mess with anything else ? "

if you can stage it , start from a distance away . go to an area where you know there will be those distractions and go far enough away that he's not reacting to the distraction , but as you play move slightly closer . if you start to lose his focus on you , move away again . pay attention to the distance and trend over time , because this will be a process over time .

last point ( for now lol ) the class sounds kinda old school thinking . not sure if this is the class for you and this dog . at this point you are looking for engagement with the dog , the ( formal ? ) obedience will come later after the groundwork of the relationship is set .

you want him to like you , to want to be near you , and to want to play with you .

Hi Guys
Thanks for your replies, yes he does understand leave it, but when the bike comes all else goes out of the window. If i am so far away from it i can distract him with his toys. As for playing tug.

He won't willingly let go, but will out about 10 seconds after me telling him and he is ready to grab it immediately he has let go, so he is focused really well on it.

I threw it a couple of metre away and then run backwards encouraging him on the way and he would come straigt back to me 99% of the time to play again and on the rare occasion he didn't come straight back, it was only a few seconds delay.

I will work on playing tug at a distance he can see the bikes and then move nearer over time and see how that goes. Again thanks for your advice everyone. I am sure i will be back very soon with more questions.

I know forums are for sharing and helping each other and i am not helping you guys a great deal, but i am sharing my problems. LOL

Hopefully one day, i will be able to help others as you have helped me.

Cheers
Brian

The "Angry Benji" video says the whole thing in a nutshell. No where near anger! The dog is a handful and you don't quite have his respect. He may love you but he's calling the shots and he's not begging to play, he's telling/bulling you in order to get some play out of you. NILF again. He has to earn the right to play.
In reading this whole post I do see huge improvements in your efforts.
The Fetch game is huge for developing your relationship. You both begin to trust one another. He's learning that you WILL toss the ball if he brings it back. Just remember that the ball belongs to you, not him.At the end of play time he doesn't get it to chew on. It's a training tool and it belongs to you. He earns the right to chase it and bring it back to you.
I also love tug work with my dogs but that tug is also mine. The dog has to earn the right to play that game.
With the bike! He simply finds that more exciting then his tug, ball, whatever. If you going to use the pinch collar they can be an excellent tool if used properly. Part of that "properly" means you have to be convincing with it. Sounds like you may be doing just a bit of nagging with it and that just teaches him he can ignore you. FIRM but FAIR! It has to make him think. The correction fits the crime. In other words, a small correction is good if it stops the bad behavior. If it doesn't you have to raise the level of correction.
Let him wear it whenever you can, meaning always under supervision otherwise he'll get collar wise. That means he mind beautifully but will still ignore you when it's not on. He's learned the power. He needs to be so familiar with it that he no longer thinks about it being on or off. In the house, arouond the yard/garden but never when you can't keep close watch. That's because it has rarely happened where a collar gets hung up on a fence,etc.

DO NOT worry about helping us. Your desire to do the right thing by your dog is all anyone here wants. Your time to "pass it on" will come in time.
For now I'm joining in to root you on with Benji. Nothing better then seeing someone put a sincere effort in their dog!

Thanks Bob
I think your right, i think i do need to be a little firmer with him, with the bike chasing etc. I am not 100% i have the correct size collar for him, its slipping down a little, but if i take another link out its to tight, i think it only has about 5 links in it now, sorry i cant be more precise, but im a work and its now 00.20 here in uk. I will check when i get home tomorrow morning. I will also continue with the tug work with him and see how it goes.
Many Thanks

Somewhere on this site Ed has a video or site about how to fit the prong collar. Most folks start out with them way to loose.

Somewhere on this site Ed has a video or site about how to fit the prong collar. Most folks start out with them way too loose.


http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm



Also, as Bob said, "DO NOT worry about helping us. Your desire to do the right thing by your dog is all anyone here wants. Your time to "pass it on" will come in time.
For now I'm joining in to root you on with Benji. Nothing better then seeing someone put a sincere effort in their dog!"


There is noting at all that the regulars on this board want more than what you are doing: listening, asking, putting in the effort!


Please keep this in mind: " NILF again. He has to earn the right to play. "




I agree with Bob that "The Fetch game is huge for developing your relationship" too. "You both begin to trust one another. He's learning that you WILL toss the ball if he brings it back." That's kinda what I meant about bringing engagement into fetch as well as tug and other toys.

Do you know how to teach him to return it to your hand?

I don't teach this release outdoors in the excitement of the chase. I backchain (teaching links in a command-chain starting from the last one) the retrieve, so even with a simple game of fetch, he learns the release of the ball into my hand first.

Hi Connie
Thanks for your help.

I went out with him again this morning and played the tug for about 45 minutes, again he would out pretty quickly most of the time and sometimes he didnt want to give it up, but did eventually. I tried it with some training as well, like i would have him go down, which was instant and then wait whilst i walked off a little and then stood still. I would then tell him to come, but he would stay lay down, i think waiting for me to show him his tug ring, after lots of encouragement he would come and then sit to command and i would then say YES and play tug. I think i am getting it right??? Also Connie, how would you recommend teaching the fetch?
Many Thanks
Brian

I have another quick question re - prong collar, it only has 4 links with prongs on it to fit and i think it is still a little loose, i measured his neck under his chin and it was about 14.5 inches. Should i look for a small collar, as i am not sure which size this one is.??
Thanks
Brian

You must have a collar with large links. There are quality collars with small links.
Can you link us a photo of the collar you have on photobucket?

"Also Connie, how would you recommend teaching the fetch?"

Heading out to train, but will outline this for you later today.