 Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: Jevon Brookes ]
#371941 - 01/12/2013 11:28 AM |
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NO LASER LIGHTS for dogs!
Not to offend you, RC, but this is an well-identified trigger (not identified until maybe ten years ago as being such a problem) for OCD/OCB and should never (NEVER) be used as a reward, or to tease, or with dogs, period. I know many people don't know the danger yet, but it's always good to get another thread here that alerts people, because it's still being used.
If you had read the many many horror stories about dogs developing permanent ODB starting with laser lights (even with flashlights, occasionally), you'd know why we have a pile of PMs saying "Yikes!"
We don't want to derail this thread, so we can start another one here:
http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33021&page=1#371942
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Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: RC Dennis ]
#371943 - 01/12/2013 11:32 AM |
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"Sort of off the topic, just thought I would mention it. But it is a way of proofing at home. Getting them to respond in a heightened drive state."
I don't know about this .... this dog seems to be reactive on the fearful end of the scale. My goals for this dog probably would not involve heightened anxiety or excitement.
JMO, though.
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Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: Jevon Brookes ]
#371953 - 01/12/2013 12:26 PM |
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RC . . . like , on one hand , i get it but on the other i'm thinking " why ? "
sure the chasing might be perceived ( by you ) as it's own reward , but i just don't see the advantage or reasoning why you wouldn't just use a toy / tug so that you can have like a real interaction with the dog ?
personally , i think you are screwing with the dogs' mind in a way that isn't really " fair " . just like i won't / don't chuck snowballs for my dogs because they can't really retrieve them , the chasing of the laser light doesn't result in a true engagement with the dog and IMHO , that should be the motivating factor for the dog to want to do things with / for you .
as well , i think it takes some of the dogs' dignity away by putting him in a heightened state of anxiety to resolve an unresolvable situation . sure it may look like he's having a good time , but as you yourself noted , if you do it too much you're unwittingly developing a behaviour that you really don't want .
" oh look , dads going to make me run around like an idiot chasing something i can't catch , and then i gotta sit " .
certainly an imaginative approach , i'll give you that . . .
JMObservations . . .
dogs : the best part of being human |
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Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: Jevon Brookes ]
#371955 - 01/12/2013 01:13 PM |
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First; I think Connie's right. I don't think this dog's ready to work in drive yet.
Second; The laser is definitely a bad idea with animals.
Third; However, in all fairness to RC...
Chasing is an effective key component in many systems of training working dogs. My TD is a working dog trainer who is teaching me decoy work. When working very young dogs or beginners, he does not allow me to give the dog a catch. Before moving to bites, he wants to make sure that the prey drive is pproperly ingrained. There is no appreciable decline in handler engagement.
There is an excellent description of the phases of prey drive, how each relates to play with the dog, and how each is used to build on the last to fully develop an effective drive for training. It is in an article by Bernhardt Mannel originally published in 1981. It was recently translated and published in Schutzhund USA magazine (Jul/Aug 2012). Here is a link to a webpage containing the same article.
http://www.hausmerkel.com/drive.htm
ETA: this webpage is not the complete article. I will cotinue looking for a link to the entire article.
quote: "This first try at wanting to grab his prey is the most important moment psychologically for the dog and helper."
Edited by Duane Hull (01/12/2013 01:13 PM)
Edit reason: text added
Sadie |
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Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: Jevon Brookes ]
#371965 - 01/12/2013 10:32 PM |
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Interesting, I have never heard this before. I will research it.
But I would like to make a few comments.
I will put them on the other thread.
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Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#371989 - 01/13/2013 03:57 PM |
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"Sort of off the topic, just thought I would mention it. But it is a way of proofing at home. Getting them to respond in a heightened drive state."
I don't know about this .... this dog seems to be reactive on the fearful end of the scale. My goals for this dog probably would not involve heightened anxiety or excitement.
JMO, though.
Connie, you are correct in your thinking. She is already too anxious and overly excited. I try to keep her in a calm submissive state as much as possible. The only times I get her excited is during her rewards.
On a good note. She did very well on our walk yesterday. I carried a bag of HV treats and she was able to ignore a few dogs we came across at a distance. We did come across some dogs up close and I just told her "NO...look at me" when she started to focus on it too much. When she did (even for a split second) I gave her praise and a treat and kept moving. Slow but steady progress.
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Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: RC Dennis ]
#372146 - 01/16/2013 08:13 AM |
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Seeing as you have not done any marker training you could actually condition the dog to look at you while you train the markers using Michaels technique of "charging the mark".
The way I did it was using the food as a lure I made them follow my hand around in circles, figure8's the whole time saying the word "goood" a million times. When I released the food I say "yes" then I would abruptly stop and stand up straight with my hands down in front of me on to my sides.
They naturally look at your hands first, without saying a word I just waited for them to look at my face, the instant they gave me eye contact I marked "goooood" and jumped back into the lure game.
At the same time you are reinforcing the "goood" marker, it simply means 'your doing what I want keep doing it'.
The object of the exercise is them figuring out, to restart the game they have to look at your face not your hands.
You have a full grown pitbull though so before you try this you need the DVD Training with food and MAKE SURE you watch the part about how to deliver the food .... otherwise after 1 or 2 sessions you make not have any skin left on your fingers, or worse ..... stitches .  )
If you do it this way, your dog will go everywhere looking up at you. Constantly lol, almost to the point it becomes spooky. But that is ultimate engagement/focus ... the goal. Once you have that attention span you can teach your dog anything and do it much faster.
Get that DVD it's the best investment you'll ever make.
RC
I reread this post and I'll be trying this technique with her tonight. Thanks again. I'll be getting the training with markers dvd soon.
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Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: Jevon Brookes ]
#372149 - 01/16/2013 10:38 AM |
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Reg: 12-08-2005
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Loc: Stoney Creek , Ontario, Canada
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The way I did it was using the food as a lure I made them follow my hand around in circles, figure8's the whole time saying the word "goood" a million times. When I released the food I say "yes" then I would abruptly stop and stand up straight with my hands down in front of me on to my sides.
The dog isn't going to know whats happening if you lure him around saying Good. Also, you don't release the food then say yes.
The food always comes after your mark, not before or at the same time you release the food. You mark (yes) then reward.
Jevon...
It would probably work better for you to just charge the mark the normal way for now.
Charging the mark should be very uncomplicated in the beginning, no luring or using the bridge word good.
Most people use "yes" as their mark.
You want to teach the dog that the word yes means he's done something good so he gets a reward. If you release the food first then say yes he's not associating the word with anything!
go here:
http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers-clickers.pdf
Go to Page 19:
Charging the Mark and read that section.
Then read the whole article. It has a wealth of information for you until you get the DVD.
and i concur...NO LASER LIGHTS FOR DOGS EVER!!!
in training or play they just aren't a good idea.
building up frustration in a dog then not give him an outlet/satisfaction in the end is unfair and causes problems down the line. He can never ever catch the light which would end his frustration so he's always left in a heightened state.
Don't use them.
Don't complain....TRAIN!!! |
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 Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: Wendy Lefebvre ]
#372154 - 01/16/2013 12:26 PM |
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Wendy thanks. I actually found an article and the podcast on markers earlier. I'm reading it instead of doing my work as we speak 
Markers
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Re: Dog aggression with whining
[Re: Jevon Brookes ]
#372157 - 01/16/2013 01:18 PM |
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Wendy thanks. I actually found an article and the podcast on markers earlier. I'm reading it instead of doing my work as we speak
Markers
lol...no worries Jevon...I have the tendency to do the same thing while I am at work!
Just so you know...my dog (rescue) had severe DA issues when I first got him. And with correct training methods and alot of hard work and consistency I got him to the point of being able to ignore other dogs completely and not react to them at all.
so it is possible...it just will take some time to work through it.
pm me if you like...or just keep posting your questions.
Don't complain....TRAIN!!! |
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