Just had a situation yesterday where I was very uncomfortable. I just told my malinois to "watch him" and she did and that was enough. And she is a 60 lb dog.

I've been doing a lot of thinking and research on PP training recently, and I think you really need to trust a trainer AND have the absolutely right dog for the task- this is 95% genetic- if you are going to train a dog for PP with the bite- and if you will be working a lot in defense.

I would consider a police dog a different deal from a PP dog entirely. There are plenty of clues to a PSD of who the "bad guy" is- usually the bad guy is running away or real agitated. The "good guys" are usually in uniform. The dog is usually wearing some sort of "working" gear- when he is on duty. So when he is not "on-duty" he can chill out. And from what I've seen the PSD is on leash/restrained unless released to bite the guy who's scent he is tracking.

I also think protection work in schutzhund makes it very clear to the dog what is going on. The dog is on the field, the helper has a sleeve, the dog is wearing protection gear (harness, agitation collar). Time of day and people hanging around are the same usually.

So... a PP dog- is supposed to go everywhere with you. He is "on-duty" all the time. He has no great cues as to the "bad guy". You may turn a perfectly OK dog into a nervous wreck- looking for the "bad guy" in everyone. Especially if she is already showing signs of stress about what sounds like just sport training so far.

I am far far far (far) from an expert on this. I could be totally wrong about police dogs- I have no first-hand experience. Just saying what I've been thinking recently. And how it has helped me come to decisions on how I'm going to work with my dog. I'm hoping it might help the OP make a decision on whether to even continue training for PP with this dog.

Went up to the training school in person today, however i did not find a video camera.

"Passoff"

The issue was that Heidi would not bark, or thought the person was playing a game once she knew them, so they couldn't get a good strong bark out of her. With a new person hiding behind trees and coming towards her waving a stick, she had laser focus did not back away did not get nervous, but didn't really seem threatened, I got a whine that she gives when she suspects something is wrong and nothing more. She used to bark, and thats the problem we are trying to figure out.

When the handler she knew came out she did the same thing, we didn't have a sleeve on them yet, but before, they told me she starts wagging and jumping around because she thinks its a game. Today with me giving the command she stayed focused and never gave her playful body language.

Bite time.
This dog has a powerful full mouth bite. On the softer sleeve her first bite went straight through and left bruises on the helpers. She bit every single time the helper came at her, and was forcefully trying to get at them. She bit every time without a command being given. When the head trainer put on the sleeve she still fought the line to get there but gave a bit of a sissy bite, when I command bite she bite down HARD with a full mouth bite, I mean it left an immediate black and blue bruise on him straight through the sleeve.. Watching today has alleviated a lot of worry. Heidi will work for other people, but she really works for me. You can visibly see how excited she gets when I am giving her praise.

I am going to have to work on getting her to feel comfortable with her stay away bark a little more, but for now I am going to have them continue with her bitework foundation and see if they can get her to bite on like I got her to today. If you guys have anymore thoughts let me know, especially on some ways I can encourage that bark a bit more. From watching, she is very suspicious, especially when I give the command to be, and she does give the bark if someone she doesn't know comes on our property without greeting me first, the trick is going to be fostering that so she knows thats what I want her to do every time.

The way the bark would be developed in sport work is to build up her prey drive for the sleeve, then frustrate her in high prey drive until she barks when she wants a bite. The bark is rewarded with a bite, and she learns that if she wants to play tug on the sleeve, she has to bark to initiate the game.

IMHO, your trainers are trying to get her to bark in defense, and she is not intimidated enough by them, or she is too intimidated and is shutting down (refusal to fight/defend against a known assailant-the fear reaction that Steve alluded to previously).

 Quote: Duane Hull

The way the bark would be developed in sport work is to build up her prey drive for the sleeve, then frustrate her in high prey drive until she barks when she wants a bite. The bark is rewarded with a bite, and she learns that if she wants to play tug on the sleeve, she has to bark to initiate the game.

IMHO, your trainers are trying to get her to bark in defense, and she is not intimidated enough by them, or she is too intimidated and is shutting down (refusal to fight/defend against a known assailant-the fear reaction that Steve alluded to previously).

thats the issue, I was uncertain until I saw it, but I know for sure now thats what it is. They have a great setup with poles really secure in the ground, I am going to but a similar setup in my yard in a couple weeks and I ill frustrate her until she gets that bark up. They are going to very slowly start building up the noise and other things to see if we can't get her back to where she considers them a threat. With me around she kind of knows that I am going to be the one really handling things, its the same way with dogs so we may try having them all come to my home and doing a session there to see what happens. I don't want to freak her out yet, but eventually we will simulate that I am actually being injured by the helper and see what happens.

self delete

IMHO, this training could adversely affect the dog. Why not teach a good bark display and call her done? Why force the dog into something it's not comfortable with, at the risk of creating a confused bag of nerves?

As Kiersten said earlier, it's 95% genetic. Why force a square peg into a round hole?

I think you need a stronger dog than you have to do the work you expect.

Just MHO.

Edited by David Winners (04/05/2013 05:19 PM)
Edit reason: typo

Wouldn't it be nice to appreciate and enjoy this girl for what she is?

 Quote: Jeffrey Hill

I don't want to freak her out yet, but eventually we will simulate that I am actually being injured by the helper and see what happens.

That's the worst idea I've heard yet.

If the dog will only bark when high in prey drive, she is not suited for PP. If you keep pushing this dog in defense, you're going to force her into fight-or-flight, and create a fear biter.

JMO

 Quote: Anne Jones

Jeffrey you need to go back & read your own earlier thread.

All along it has seemed that this dog may not be a suitable dog for PP work.

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32129&page=1#358972

AGAIN.....go back & read this post from way back a year ago...it was clearly stated that this dog did not seem suitable for bite work.

I will never for the life of me understand why owners feel they need to push a dog into a job that they are not suited to do.

If you are so hell-bent on a protection dog...buy a suitable green dog 12-18 months old where you can see what the dog already has to bring to the table & then train it for bite work. (SHAKING HEAD)

Plain and simply, a true protection dog has to want to fight, and yours doesn't. Even if you force her to, you won't be able to trust her in a real crisis because she does not have the desire to fight an attacker.