This isn't a tangent, it all has to do with leftover bait on a track. While some dogs may find tracking rewarding in itself, its still an obedience and if they have no interest in the rewards on the track, I just can't see how they won't at some point decide something over there is more interesting, I'll find that stupid article when I get around to it.

Why bait a little after a corner? If Sadie loses the corner do you let her work it out then be rewarded for it? What if that's the bait she skips?

Its a real simple point Duane, you don't need to look anything up or try to clarify anything. Bait is a tool in your tracking just like the line, the harness or collar. If they're skipping or missing it they're missing a part of your track. Its training, I know it happens, but you want to figure out why. Is it because its low value? Why bother using something like that, that doesn't make sense at all.

Is the track too easy? Was the bait on the track? (Lol, that's a good one)Are you pressuring her so much to go forward that she worries about bait that isn't right in sight? Tracking properly is a little ambiguous, I think.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Some dogs get more self reward from the track itself. It's just a rewarding behavior to them.
One of my GSDs started skipping bait early. It didn't bother me simply because he was still putting his nose in every foot print. If he would have been missing footsteps all together I would wonder why.
Pushing the dog to fast? Bait is to high value to concentrate on the track itself? Bait is to low level value and the dog ignores it for the track? That's not a bad thing as long as the dog keeps a deep nose.

I get part of this completely. I get it that your dog kept a deep nose even when skipping bait.

When I had a dog skipping bait, he was skipping steps.

OK .... different thing. I understand.

This is a good discussion with very divergent opinions. I guess I don't get this (below), and it's not an individual dog question, or a Duane thing, or a Katie thing, or Steve or the O.P., but a general FST "philosophy," I guess:

This came from Steve in a conversation we were having about FST and skipping bait:

"Self-rewarding is doing what THEY want. Maybe it's something else next to your track, especially when someone else has laid it. ..... If you are now putting bait down randomly, it's a reinforcement strategy just like with any other obedience. How can it not matter if the dog skips it?"

And this is where I'm getting hung up, too, and I see now after a night's sleep that it's basically a question of "Is FST an obedience exercise?" I think it is.

 Quote: Duane Hull

I thought (and have been told) that the idea was for a dog to run increasingly longer tracks while maintaining a steady pace and searching each footstep with a deep nose.

By your measure, I am a failure, yet my dog runs longer and longer tracks with less bait and more enthusiasm and focus than the previous one. She has learned, with minimal pressure and compulsion, that she must keep tracking, even when there are fewer rewards. If her interest was waning rather than waxing, I would agree.

This is not the first time that I have been told that my methods are incorrect, yet my dog continues to progress. I was told that I was teaching the dumbbell wrong, yet, inside of two weeks, my dog was doing full retrieves over a jump and holding it still for more than three seconds . I was told that I couldn't get a full BH routine with just food drive because my dog would not be motivated enough without constant rewards, yet she can complete a full routine without a single treat.

I missed all this. Let me be clear Duane. I don't have any measure of anything to apply to you. Not only have I never called or even implied you are a failure, when you actually trial, I hope you don't. I know how that feels. Passing is a lot more fun.

This is all specific to one piece in training, whether or not skipping bait matters. I think it does. That's not a condemnation of your "methods". In your "method" your spending time calculating where to place bait and how much to place. If it doesn't matter that she misses some, why not just drop it wherever?

It does matter where it is placed, Steve. I think you're putting too much emphasis on an isolated occurrence.

What do you do in training OB and the dog misses? You give an "uh uh", withhold the reward, and try again. A well-trained dog gets it right the next time (or in subsequent attempts). You don't conclude that it is pointless to reward because the dog wasn't perfect every time.

IMO, tracking is no different. So my dog misses one bait in three 250m tracks. I'm supposed to glean from that that it is pointless to bait the track? I disagree.

Because I'm not singling out one occurrence on one of your tracks. The original comment was skipping bait was a good thing. Something you wanted. You decided to blow it into a defense of your "methods" and successes. It went from a general training discussion to poor underdog Duane overcoming the internet naysayers.

 Quote: steve strom

Is it because its low value? Why bother using something like that, that doesn't make sense at all.

To be clear, I think there's a difference between "Low value" and "Lower value". To be clear, by "lower value", I meant that my dog's treats have a scale of value. At the very bottom is kibble, which she will hardly work for at all (unless I starve her, and then she would still prefer to have a training treat). Next would be our training treats, which she absolutely loves and has high drive for, but they are not as valuable as chicken jerky, which I reserve for special training. At the high end would be meat scraps, which drive her so high that she starts to get frantic.

For tracking, training treats are plenty enough motivation to keep her going.

I'd really really love further discussion of

"The original comment was skipping bait was a good thing. Something you want."

and

"Of course I would be concerned if my dog was skipping multiple baits."


A general discussion would be terrific!

I'll stop talking about my beginner dog, years back, who was skipping bait and it was NOT "something I wanted."

 Quote: steve strom

The original comment was skipping bait was a good thing. Something you wanted.

My fault. I didn't see that one. I remember someone making the point that you judge the dog's success by whether it is following the scent and tracking properly rather than just searching for food, and that you shouldn't let the dog continue to search for random skipped baits if it is following the scent on the track. That was the point that I was trying to support.

That was the post we were all replying to.

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=33343&page=2

Three replies quoted it, then YOUR reply quoted it.



ETA
But I don't care. I'm thrilled to have a training discussion on the board! And it has multiple responses!




Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/02/2013 12:50 PM)
Edit reason: eta

PS to fill in:

Anne said

"Use less bait on the track, don't feed the dog first, slow the dog down so he checks out each FS & gets all the bait. Feed the dog his meal on the track..he won't miss it after a day or 2.

To me if he is leaving more then a couple of pieces of bait...he is going too fast or you are using too much bait."

There were a few posts agreeing.

Then Katie posted

"Your dog missing pieces of food means he/she is following scent, not food. You want this."

and many posts quoting that followed.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/02/2013 01:03 PM)
Edit reason: italicize quotes