Hi Tracy, No offence taken no worries....Why the Kuvasz? even though strong minded, it is a good family pet, willing to work, calm and serine and very beautiful. If you know that I haven't own a dog for 15 years you know that I have met these dogs back in 1985 as family pets. The family had 2 of them and they were great with their young children, us strangers *friends and I just loved them. Playful and they looked as if they were always smiling. I like large dogs and knowing my temperment as being strong I thought we would be a good match....I still think so....More I look back and more as the days go by I see that yes she is strong minded and need to be corrected for her constant tries to be hire than me in rank but I think that is mostly because I do not do the right things in every thing and I give her the indication that she can.....I am in the process of changing things in her education and I have to learn how to nip this at the bud as we say. She is 5 months I don't think I can throw the towell just yet, with the proper guidance and method Ziva and I can have many years of happiness together.....wouldn't you think? And she is soooo sweet in many other ways....

Oh Tracy as per your question about me worrying about her becoming an aggressive adult dog....well yes if this pack behavior is not taken care of ..... I would thing it is obvious....Let us be able not to let it go that far...

Are you familiar with NILIF? (Much of Tracy's post was NILIF-driven.)

And did you catch this from Bob Scott?

"In addition to obedience I think you should spend more time with the dog and make obedience a fun game instead of trying to physically make the dog do something."

These are not two contradictory methods. They are complementary, IMO, and they focus on what you DO want rather than so much on what you DON'T want.

JMO!

So .... do you know what NILIF is about?

Hi again Connie,

Yes I have seen the comment, and applied it in the fetch the ball game today, I asked her to sit when brigning it (as before) but I added the laydown and come....she was puzzeled as not being used to being asked more then sit and drop before....but we played like that for a few minutes not much....I will try to do it more and more....and no I am not familiar with NILIF,,,,,remember that I am french and btw I take the oportunity to apologize for all the gramatical errors and typos I did these past few days lol.....thank you again....you guys, all of you have been wonderful, I feel supported and not as much alone in all of this

NILIF means Nothing In Life Is Free.

It means that the dog pays for each resource and benefit.

First, the dog must know a couple of commands well. (Don't assume she knows it well just because she knows it in one room, as part of a pattern or in one situation. All commands must be proofed for venue and distraction before the dog "knows" it.)

Now these behaviors can be used to pay (in advance) for all good stuff, from walks to treats to supper.

By the same token, a dog demanding attention, maybe by putting a paw on you or sticking a head under your book or whining to be petted, does not get it. That would be "free," and Nothing In Life Is Free.

NILIF, when practiced consistently, constantly reinforces who is the keeper and bestower of all resources. It's non-confrontational and effective.


You are right to start over on the recall. I can pretty much promise you that when it soured, you
did it.

That's good news, because it means you can fix (re-do) it.

Here are some of the ways that we damage the recall: We use it when we aren't 100% sure that the dog will comply and we have no reinforcement (like a long line in our hand). We chase the dog and thus teach that we will play chase. We call the dog and then correct for slow response (or anything) when the dog comes! (This one, when written out, sounds insane, doesn't it? But how many people do that? A LOT!) We call the dog for unpleasant things like a medicine or to end a game. We forget to praise and reward for compliance with the recall. We forget to use it for all good things, reinforcing how good it is for the dog to hear the recall.

So yes, I would start that over completely, as you said.


I would like to read more detail about the nipping and biting, or if I missed the detail perhaps you can just copy and paste that part.


And again, I'm not in any way an expert on this breed. But from all that I have read (books and from Willie and other long-time owners here), management and NILIF rather than confrontation is a huge chunk of successful co-existence with them.

 Quote: Duane Hull

The point there was that I feel that challenging the master can not lead to anything good, and must be curbed.

As Mara pointed out in her reply, my dog is not the same type of dog as this one, and what worked for me wouldn't work on this breed. Either way, it must be resolved, or this dog will be a danger to Solange's family.

If Willie is a better refernce for this breed, then I second your suggestion.

ETA. What I did with my dog was way more involved than just a physical correction, but it worked because, as Mara put it, my dog cared about what I thought. The core was many repetitions of "I take the bone, I give it back. I take the bone, whether you approve or not".

That's different. David Winners if I remember right had a full, knock down, drag out, fight where he got bit. Kristin just has a high drive dog she's learning with. When you emphasize ONCE like that, that reads more like Hull-a-Mania runnin wild than a plan of withholding things.

BTW, Solange, when I remind you of this:

Here are some of the ways that we damage the recall: We use it when we aren't 100% sure that the dog will comply and we have no reinforcement (like a long line in our hand),

it's because every time the dog ignores a recall, it's reinforced in the dog's mind that it's optional.


My goal is that my dog LOVES to hear the recall. However, when I have a dog with a tainted recall or a dog I have any doubt at all about, and I'm starting over, the dog is on a long line. I really don't mean a leash; I mean a long line. That is, it's there if I need it, but the dog isn't on a leash in the usual sense.

If I have to reel her in, I do it with no comment and no correction. But I also kind of consider it a handler error, because it means I used the recall when I had not worked up to whatever situation we were in.

Make sense?

I know this is a lot of focus on one part of the original posts, and I don't mean to branch off into just the recall. I just think it's important and that it's something to be thinking about all day. When I am teaching it, for example, I will even manufacture good results and use it from half a room away.


All JMO!

HI!! Hilarie Coby said ya'all were talking about me.
Someone needs help with a Molosser?
Thanks for all the nice things people said about me!!
I read through the thread from the beginning. I am not great or patient with copying and pasting and quoting and all that, so with NO offense directed at ANYONE.............
Molosser breeds are totally different than other breeds of dogs period. They dont think like herding or any other dogs I have worked with. THey have been bred for thousands of thousands of years to do certain things in a certain way and if you approach them like you would a regular dog you will have trouble on your hands.
Yes all the pack structure stuff that ED has on his videos is spot on, BUT you have to understand how these dogs THINK and view the world to put ED's fantastic info into practice with them.
First of all it sounds like this particular bitch is what I think of as "ancient" type in her view of the world. SHe sounds like she shouldn't be in a pet home and her developing instincts are driving her to dominate and work.
Does that mean that Solange should not have her in a pet home??.....NO. IT means that a working home must be created within the pet home.
From what i have read it is going to take a ton of hard work, which surprisingly it sounds like this particular owner is up to. Most are not.

So that is my first question to Solange. How badly do you WANT to keep THIS particular Kuvasz?
The breeder has offered to take her back, and sounds like she has given good advice thus far, but how much time and energy do you want to put into this dog and what is the end result you want out of this dog.
Seriously. THink long and hard about your answer. There is NO shame AT ALL in saying to yourself...."you know what....I love this breed, but this particular dog is not developing into the dog I want for my companion. I really would rather have a pet temperament type that I wont have to work so hard with. "

Temperament and personality are for the most part set at birth and there is no getting around the way this dog is hard wired. CAn you work within those boundaries and get a good working relationship with the dog? Yes.....it is just a matter of how much work you want to put into it.

From what you have written Solange, it sounds like you are up to the task, but what are your desires? AND also understanding that this particular Kuvasz is going to take more work than you were expecting.

I can help you with the dog and will.
for starters, for now don't force a confrontation.

NO OFFENSE MEANT This is where I don't go through and quote everything that everyone has said that I don't think is a good idea...no personal attack meant : For THIS dog the advice that Duanne Hull (Whom I like and think has lots of great things to say) and Samantha Topper's (Whom I don't know and really hope I don't make hate me) is not aplcable for the most part. Mike Arnold (Again, fantastic stuff to say..) was off base in that he was coming from the point of view that this is a shepherding breed/type. it is not.
Bob Scott, Steve, Connie, The others have said things that are good for this situation.

DO NOT do any sort of alpha rolling/grabbing to this dog. The grabbing her cheeks thing...nonono. don't.
Sooooo...Let me know if you really want to keep her and the answers to the other questions.
I would be happy to help you out as best as I am able.

 Quote: Mara Jessup

it really helps to have a dog that cares about what you think... Herding dogs are bred to work with you.

Hahaha, my cattle dog is like a teenage girl... he cares about what I think WAY TOO MUCH.

 Quote: Willie Tilton

HI!! Hilarie Coby said ya'all were talking about me.

The magic of the dog world! A post mentions your name and mere hours later you have been told, and here you are!

There you go, Solange. Willie is your gal.


And she managed to say something important about the thread: Some really good advice has been posted .... for many (probably most) breeds .... by people with experience and smarts.

It's just that these LGBs are a little different. I'm glad Willie got the shout-out.