Quote: Natalie Rynda

Hi, how do I know for sure that my dog knows a command so that I can correct for non compliance?

Also, how much to correct (leerburg says that nagging corrections do more harm than good and I definitely nag corrected for months)

Thank you

Hey Natalie, I skipped a lot on the thread but there was a couple things I don't think were brought up. I don't worry so much about when to start correcting for something as much as I try to concentrate on the dog understanding a correction. I'll start with leave it on my 7wk old puppy. On a flat collar, I tell them leave it and give them a little pop. Give them a little praise or reward, then move on. I'm always working on come with them, I move away in the beginning to build excitement for coming to me.

Then I add a come to the leave it so they do something fun and exciting right after the little pop and I reward that. The idea is that they learn a correction isn't the end of the world, it leads to something good.

This helps you keep from getting into the nagging corrections too. It's teaching them to respond to a single correction.

I'm sure this was probably posted because its a big part of the marker training stuff, but you need their attention on you to be able to make all the commands and marker words clear to them. A clear beginning and a clear ending to whats being asked.

I like to cue them with Ready, to start and done to tell them its ok to sniff around, look around, just be a dog. So if I'm letting them relax and just walk up to the door with me, I'm not going to make a big deal about them sitting or not unless I tell them to pay attention and I tell them to sit. I don't ask for too much when it their 'down time' I'm just using the door as an example, those kinda things are up to you and how you want him to behave. I'm just kinda generalizing a point of making it clear to him when its time to listen and when he can be relaxed. I look at it as all part of nagging too.

Natalie;
Don't be discouraged by the gaps in communication. One of the biggest obstacles in participating in an open forum of this type is that there is a HUGELY diverse array of ages, genders, ethnicities, experiences and philosophies. Just the fact that it is about dogs creates enough disparity, as opinions range wildly.

You have a lot of questions (which is optimal for an active student), and when unsure of the reply, you present new angles or additional info that may thwart an advisor. Some of the issues you raised have been and always be disagreed upon in the dog world. The advice you are receiving here has been given umpteen million times, and it's a little shocking to continually run across people that either aren't aware of it or just don't get it. THAT'S OK! The process may be painful, but it's worth the effort.

I want to address a couple of your more recent inquiries. "Stubbornness" (and any other intangible concept or emotion that is commonly attributed to humans) is a topic that will always spark a debate. Some people totally disagree with attributing human traits to dogs, while the other extreme anthromorphises to the point where they think their dog can actually speak human language. Call it what you wish, specific behaviors can be trained into or out of practically any dog. However, you may train out some personality in the process.

Treats are phased out FOR THE MOST PART in FUTURE phases of training, just as corrections are phased in. You are so far from that point that I believe most readers are wondering why you are worried about that right now. In some ways, treats are never phased out. Even with a senior dog, I teach new behaviors using food. Parlor tricks are always rewarded with food, as is bringing in the newspaper and eating on command. My dog thinks she deserves a treat for pooping on command, but I've pretty much phased that out. Time and experience will sort all of that out for you. In the meantime, If I were you, I'd spend all of my energy on the foundation.

"I'm saying it every way I know."

Was there a need for this?



I was saying that my several different ways of going at the proofing issue (in replying to three bits of posts in a row) are all meant to lead to one premise: the dog isn't corrected (at least not fairly) if he can't understand the correction, such as for a command that has not been thoroughly proofed.

I'm sorry for how it came across. I'm pretty sure I make it a practice to explain patiently, and I sure as heck don't want to leave the impression that I made. Please forgive that.

"Control the environment in such a way that the probability of him coming to you is very high even before you start that activity. ... Also, you have mentioned that you call him and he does not come to you sometimes. I would first of all "stop calling him" . Take him to an empty room when he is hungry and have a fist full of cheese bits. Give him a bit of food and walk away. Do not say anything... Let him make the decision to come to you , but if he does, mark the instant he makes that decision (not when he comes to you) and feed him and move away , let him make that decision again.. train this for a few weeks till the behaviour gets stronger. Only after that you have to even open your mouth to command him to come. "

I very much like this comment of Ram's.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

Is a dog never "being stubborn?"

Yesterday I was picking up walnuts on the lawn. I'm sure that they taste dreadful. The job was pick up the walnut, drop it into the pail. Reward: liverwurst. I'm pretty sure the dog knows the command. He knows "bring" and "put". After a few he quit, though he really wanted the liverwurst.
I'm not sure "stubborn" is the right word, but it seemed the dog decided this job wasn't something he was going to do. I didn't push it because I thought the walnuts might be toxic
anyway.
On the farm, my guy does decide "forget it, I'm not doing THAT." Or it seems that way. Is that just training failure? I'm OK with it if it is. We've come a long way. And even my hired man will tell you that some jobs I request are ridiculous......

I'd be better able to weigh in if this didn't involve something that has a toxicity factor. That keeps muddying my thought about the dog's hesitation/noncompliance, etc.

I do know that you have come amazingly far with this dog.

"Knowing" the dog, I'd be interested on whether a specific compliance problem with him (aside from the walnut one) was perhaps touching on something in the anxiety package he "came with" (and that you have done such a good job on working with).

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"I'm saying it every way I know."

Was there a need for this?



I was saying that my several different ways of going at the proofing issue (in replying to three bits of posts in a row) are all meant to lead to one premise: the dog isn't corrected (at least not fairly) if he can't understand the correction, such as for a command that has not been thoroughly proofed.

I'm sorry for how it came across. I'm pretty sure I make it a practice to explain patiently, and I sure as heck don't want to leave the impression that I made. Please forgive that.

I'm going to reply to everything later tonight but quickly to this.

Then I'm sorry for misunderstanding. I guess I'm now extra sensitive because of the previous forum.

I do have endless questions, I'm not the quickest person to get it, I must understand every detail otherwise I don't understand the concept and I just want to make sure that I can keep asking things here as much as want.

My pup is 9 months old. I'm way behind in his training and I've obviously done things the wrong way.

At this point I want to be able to ask anything I don't get so that I don't confuse him even more.

I'm lucky I have a great dog, he's very understanding of my dumbness.

 Quote:

At this point I want to be able to ask anything I don't get so that I don't confuse him even more.

Maybe try sticking to only one thing for a little while, a week or something. Pay attention to your technique and how you're able to or have a little trouble with being clear enough with him to get the response you want.

 Quote:

posted by Elaine Haynes

Natalie, please don't stop asking questions even if we sometimes seem annoyed. We're all human and sometimes can seem a bit impatient (LOL). But, also don't forget that you may interpret something differently when you read it than the poster meant when s/he wrote it.

When you ask questions, it also helps others who are new to marker training and may be confused about the terminology.

To me doing something such as "reeling the dog in" or placing a dog in a sit if the dog doesn't sit when you give a command are assists, not corrections. You're showing the dog what you wanted and helping him/her to comply.

On the other hand, if your dog is off lead or across the room from you and you are not 110% sure the dog will come if called or sit if told to sit, then don't give the command at all. Go get the dog or go to the dog prior to telling the dog to sit and that way you can assist or lure him into the sit.

I hope that makes sense and that more experienced Marker Trainers will correct me if nedded.

Unfortunately I've also corrected him, pop on the prong corrected.

This is why I don't think it's such a good idea to 'stop asking and start doing' as I've been told on the other forum.

There's a big possibility of messing up the dog or your relationship with the dog.
I'd like to believe that I didn't pass that point but I'm not experienced enough to know.

Now I don't want to do anything unless I understand every aspect of it.

 Quote:

posted by Betty Landercasp
Is a dog never "being stubborn?"

Yesterday I was picking up walnuts on the lawn. I'm sure that they taste dreadful. The job was pick up the walnut, drop it into the pail. Reward: liverwurst. I'm pretty sure the dog knows the command. He knows "bring" and "put". After a few he quit, though he really wanted the liverwurst.
I'm not sure "stubborn" is the right word, but it seemed the dog decided this job wasn't something he was going to do. I didn't push it because I thought the walnuts might be toxic
anyway.

Yep, that WAS my confusion. He sat at the park 100 times so he must know he should be sitting.

I now understand that he sat at the park 100 times under a certain level of distraction and the 101st time was too much distraction so it's like he doesn't know.


But that brings me to 'how do I know when he knows' and hopefully someone answers the below

 Quote:

if the theory is that the same command at every new place is a new command then the dog never truly learns the command. 5 years from now i take him to a zoo he's never been to and tell him to SIT and he won't know what i want.

if the theory is that after a certain number of new places he learns that the command applies to all places, then the question is "how many new places does it take?"

 Quote:

posted by Steve Strom
Quote: Natalie Rynda
Hi, how do I know for sure that my dog knows a command so that I can correct for non compliance?

Also, how much to correct (leerburg says that nagging corrections do more harm than good and I definitely nag corrected for months)

Thank you

Hey Natalie, I skipped a lot on the thread but there was a couple things I don't think were brought up. I don't worry so much about when to start correcting for something as much as I try to concentrate on the dog understanding a correction. I'll start with leave it on my 7wk old puppy. On a flat collar, I tell them leave it and give them a little pop. Give them a little praise or reward, then move on. I'm always working on come with them, I move away in the beginning to build excitement for coming to me.

Then I add a come to the leave it so they do something fun and exciting right after the little pop and I reward that. The idea is that they learn a correction isn't the end of the world, it leads to something good.

This helps you keep from getting into the nagging corrections too. It's teaching them to respond to a single correction.

I'm sure this was probably posted because its a big part of the marker training stuff, but you need their attention on you to be able to make all the commands and marker words clear to them. A clear beginning and a clear ending to whats being asked.

I like to cue them with Ready, to start and done to tell them its ok to sniff around, look around, just be a dog. So if I'm letting them relax and just walk up to the door with me, I'm not going to make a big deal about them sitting or not unless I tell them to pay attention and I tell them to sit. I don't ask for too much when it their 'down time' I'm just using the door as an example, those kinda things are up to you and how you want him to behave. I'm just kinda generalizing a point of making it clear to him when its time to listen and when he can be relaxed. I look at it as all part of nagging too.

Steve, it turned out I'm not even close to the corrections part, I was misunderstanding the stage the corrections come in at.

However, I like your idea of training LEAVE IT and COME as a sequence. I will do that when he learns them separate.

Also, I don't think I like the idea of him only listening after I cue him in. I understand why you'd do that, I also struggle with the sniffing and how to tell him when it's OK and when it's not but I also like for any command to be listened to, whether it's down time or not.

I haven't been doing the READY and DONE for the training sessions. Is that a big deal?

Considering that I want him listening to me always, should I mark the beginning and the end of the training session?