Mara Jessup wrote 10/21/2013 11:13 AM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384747 - 10/21/2013 11:13 AM
Mara Jessup Webboard User Reg: 12-28-2005 Posts: 2316 Loc: Offline	Each time you add a new aspect to a command you start back at the beginning. Dogs don't generalize well. Sit from a stand is completely different than sit from a down. Sit on the street corner is completely different than sit in the house. Patience, lots of mini sessions, lots of repetition, lots of foundation work. Write out a 6 month plan. Break it down into mini goals. Then stick. to. the. plan. When you are not consistent you confuse your dog. K-9 Knitter
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Natalie Rynda wrote 10/21/2013 11:36 AM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Mara Jessup ] #384749 - 10/21/2013 11:36 AM
Natalie Rynda Webboard User Reg: 10-01-2013 Posts: 343 Loc: nyc Offline	Quote: Mara Jessup Each time you add a new aspect to a command you start back at the beginning. Dogs don't generalize well. Sit from a stand is completely different than sit from a down. Sit on the street corner is completely different than sit in the house. Patience, lots of mini sessions, lots of repetition, lots of foundation work. Write out a 6 month plan. Break it down into mini goals. Then stick. to. the. plan. When you are not consistent you confuse your dog. I know the process. I was wondering (I wasn't asking anyone, mind you, just explaining my thought process when Duane asked. This goes for me asking too many questions) of the theory behind it. Whoever came up with the theory of distractions and slowly adding them surely had something in mind. I was wondering what it was. No reply needed lol
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Duane Hull wrote 10/21/2013 11:55 AM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384751 - 10/21/2013 11:55 AM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	Natalie, my logic dictates that if you are training with distraction, but you can't figure out why the dog didn't look for his reward when you marked, you did skip some important steps. Sadie
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/21/2013 12:10 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384752 - 10/21/2013 12:10 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Ditto. Mara said "Each time you add a new aspect to a command you start back at the beginning. Dogs don't generalize well. Sit from a stand is completely different than sit from a down. Sit on the street corner is completely different than sit in the house." Building on success keeps alive the eagerness to learn and minimizes confusion. And the best and fastest way to achieve the success on which to build is with the very most simple and basic core of a behavior. And I would add to that, as with so many things, "foundation" means building fluency with the simplest of the basics and building on that. This is not pertinent only to dog training, of course.
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Duane Hull wrote 10/21/2013 12:29 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384753 - 10/21/2013 12:29 PM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	The "theory of distractions" was not created by a singular person. It is an observation repeated by millions of dog trainers over countless years, and has come to be accepted as common knowledge. These trainers determined that devaluing the distraction resulted in better focus for the dog. You can experiment with this on your own, and I suspect that you will come up with the same conclusion. eta: If that math analogy didn't work for you, let's try another. On Monday, you teach addition to a group of six-year-olds. However, in the corner of the room is a clown making and handing out balloon animals while you teach. Do you think the children would learn better if you had their undivided attention? If you gave them a quiz on Tuesday, what do predict the results would be? Edited by Duane Hull (10/21/2013 12:29 PM) Edit reason: eta Sadie
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Duane Hull wrote 10/21/2013 01:35 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384755 - 10/21/2013 01:35 PM
Duane Hull Webboard User Reg: 09-23-2011 Posts: 2692 Loc: Marrero, LA Offline	My sincere apologies to the board for beating this dead horse, but there are some points here that I think would be better addressed than ignored.  Quote: Natalie Rynda  Quote: Duane Hull Food for thought... If you're going to take algebra in high school, is it really necessary to learn math in elementary school? What would be the reason that you don't skip straight to algebra and geometry? Why not just skip all the way to calculus, for that matter? Bad analogy. Each math level is a new level, you learn different things. Dogs learn the same commands. It would actually be logical to assume if you can get them to sit with distractions then you skipped steps. It might not be correct but it's definitely logical Each level in math builds on the previous level. You can't learn algebra until you master basic math. You can't learn calculus without first knowing algebra. If all you're ever going to teach your dog is basic commands, then following a sequence may not seem critical to you. However, as most of us here do, our training goes beyond the basics, and more advanced behaviors build on the fundamentals learned in the foundation building steps. If I want to teach my dog to sit whenever we stop during heeling, then I must have a reliable sit before I start training the automatic sit. Based on my experience, the only way to make sure that she is ready is to reinforce and proof my dog's sit. It is terribly hard to reinforce that sit if my dog is worried about the other dog over there. Sadie
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Mara Jessup wrote 10/21/2013 01:53 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384759 - 10/21/2013 01:53 PM
Mara Jessup Webboard User Reg: 12-28-2005 Posts: 2316 Loc: Offline	Good example, Duane. And I think it's very worthwhile to clarify since lots of lurkers reads these threads, too! K-9 Knitter
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steve strom wrote 10/21/2013 01:56 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Natalie Rynda ] #384761 - 10/21/2013 01:56 PM
steve strom Webboard User Reg: 03-17-2006 Posts: 4203 Loc: Offline	I don't want to throw more confusion in here Natalie, but think about something. Movement. I could be wrong, but I picture you standing in one spot doing rep after rep till the treats don't matter and your dog is struggling with paying attention to you at all. Move around, do 3 or 4 reps, let him move around and relieve some stress then come back for a couple more. Try not to be too static. This is just a broad generality, but moving can help relieve pressure and build excitement. Pretty soon you can be the Xbox in his training and then Duane's balloons won't matter enough to even be a distraction.
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Natalie Rynda wrote 10/21/2013 02:12 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: Duane Hull ] #384763 - 10/21/2013 02:12 PM
Natalie Rynda Webboard User Reg: 10-01-2013 Posts: 343 Loc: nyc Offline	Quote: Duane Hull Natalie, my logic dictates that if you are training with distraction, but you can't figure out why the dog didn't look for his reward when you marked, you did skip some important steps. Lol I wasn't arguing about this. I obviously skipped something, I admitted many times that my way didn't work. If it did I wouldn't be here asking questions. I'm not doing any training outside, I went back to basics so I'm definitely trusting that everyone is right and I'm wrong. But still, at some point i'd like to understand the theory behind it. Right now I don't. It might be obvious to everyone but me but I don't get it. It's not stopping me from training without distractions though.
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Natalie Rynda wrote 10/21/2013 02:16 PM Re: Separate sit and down [Re: steve strom ] #384764 - 10/21/2013 02:16 PM
Natalie Rynda Webboard User Reg: 10-01-2013 Posts: 343 Loc: nyc Offline	Quote: steve strom I don't want to throw more confusion in here Natalie, but think about something. Movement. I could be wrong, but I picture you standing in one spot doing rep after rep till the treats don't matter and your dog is struggling with paying attention to you at all. Move around, do 3 or 4 reps, let him move around and relieve some stress then come back for a couple more. Try not to be too static. This is just a broad generality, but moving can help relieve pressure and build excitement. Pretty soon you can be the Xbox in his training and then Duane's balloons won't matter enough to even be a distraction. It depends. When training (and there IS a difference, at least the way it was presented by my trainer) I do run around and try making things exciting. However, the desensitizing exercise my trainer showed me involved just that, standing at one spot for an hour or more waiting for dogs or kids to pass by and feed him when he starts to zoom in. An hour or more, in one spot, waiting. That's what I was talking about earlier, not training sessions a minute or so asking for commands. I'm not doing this anymore, just describing what I've been talking about here
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