Quote: Candi Campbell

Richard, many folks who keep Multiple DOM/AGGRO Canines in the same household (especially 2 or More bitches) together, often live in a "gated community" where their dogs Are ALWAYS Separated by "fail-safe" barriers and/or managed through the Crate & Rotate method -- This is seen QUITE frequently among Akita owners ... It's not the way I would Ever Enjoy having to interact with my own Pet Dogs, but it can be done, if necessary

Has Fiona EVER co-existed peacefully with another dog?

I'm a big fan of walks with dogs that are slightly hinky with each other. A DD collar may not work very well for Fiona due to her lack of weight. You may have to move to a prong. It has a tendency to amp the aggression level of some dogs up but with a solid correction it works for most to enforce walking forward without being nasty about it. Molly and yourself always in the lead of course. Having Fiona across the street or back a ways at first is perfect with two handlers. Keep your pace a quick "marching right along" with no time to spin towards the other dog or be nasty. You don't want them to have an opportunity to practice the aggression. You want "neutral" to become automatic.

I concur on the barrier aggression thing. Restraint builds frustration and thats no good to change her mind about living with another dog.

People often try and create a pack leader simply because one dog was first in the house or possible because the owners simply favors one over the other.

If neither are genetically wired to lead (or follow) all that happens is frustration because they can't handle it.

YOUR the leader and the dogs are YOUR pack.

Before I had my two present GSDs I had multiple terriers. Often 2-3, and sometimes 4 at a time. They all ran together.

They did have a social structure worked out and I allowed it to a point. That requires many yrs of reading the dog's body language and I don't necessarily advise it.

I've not had two bitches at the same time. As mentioned by a few here that's another story altogether.

Males can work things out, often with no actual fighting.

Bitches can carry a grudge for life.

 Quote: Cathy Goessman

Has Fiona EVER co-existed peacefully with another dog?

At the home we got her from, she was getting along quite well with their female Lab (we saw with our own eyes). In fact the PO told us that Fiona "gets along great with female dogs...". The PO did have at least one other dog though (whom we did not see), and in hindsight the likely implication was that Fiona did not get along well with some dogs.

I called and texted the PO a few times for more background on Fiona but she did not return my calls. The PO implied that she was just acting as a temporary foster home for Fiona, but again, looking back on it we believe that she intended to keep the dog but simply was not equipped to deal with her "issues". Here in our house, however, we are committed to this dog; she is a permanent member of our family.

On a positive note, and back to the initial thread subject, Fiona spent her second night in her crate in the basement utility room without incident. It is a big relief for Lisa and me not to have her in the MBR closet anymore; in fact we have banned her (for now) from the MBR except for short transient trips. The atmosphere is much less tense here in the Boisvert household.

Operation Tough Love goes on...

bump

 Quote: Bob Scott

People often try and create a pack leader simply because one dog was first in the house or possible because the owners simply favors one over the other.

If neither are genetically wired to lead (or follow) all that happens is frustration because they can't handle it.

YOUR the leader and the dogs are YOUR pack.

Before I had my two present GSDs I had multiple terriers. Often 2-3, and sometimes 4 at a time. They all ran together.

They did have a social structure worked out and I allowed it to a point. That requires many yrs of reading the dog's body language and I don't necessarily advise it.

I've not had two bitches at the same time. As mentioned by a few here that's another story altogether.

Males can work things out, often with no actual fighting.

Bitches can carry a grudge for life.

TEST POST -- Previous Problem with text not copying

 Quote: Candi Campbell

 Quote: Bob Scott

People often try and create a pack leader simply because one dog was first in the house or possible because the owners simply favors one over the other.

If neither are genetically wired to lead (or follow) all that happens is frustration because they can't handle it.

YOUR the leader and the dogs are YOUR pack.

Before I had my two present GSDs I had multiple terriers. Often 2-3, and sometimes 4 at a time. They all ran together.

They did have a social structure worked out and I allowed it to a point. That requires many yrs of reading the dog's body language and I don't necessarily advise it.

I've not had two bitches at the same time. As mentioned by a few here that's another story altogether.

Males can work things out, often with no actual fighting.

Bitches can carry a grudge for life.

TEST POST -- Previous Problem with text not copying

There is NOTHING WORSE than a real Bitch Fight -- In the Akita breed, 2 females fighting TRULY Mean To KILL Each Other in a HOT MINUTE ... And even if a handler is SAVVY & LUCKY enough to Separate Them before one IS DEAD, those 2 bitches will NEVER Forget OR Forgive (!!!) Just PERSONALLY Speaking, I for One, would NOT enjoy having to Manage MY Home like a Zoo OR Prison 24/7/365 And I believe that Most PET Owners AGREE (folks with Working Dogs and/or Sports Dogs are often more willing to run their K9 households as "Gated Communities" on a crate & rotate regimen, but Not the average Pet owner, IMHO).

No amount of Obedience Training or even BELATED Pack Structure protocol can ALTER any dog's Genetic Wiring vis-a-vis how it will interact with another DOG when No HANDLER Is PRESENT -- If one bitch maintains ingrained DOM / AGGRO toward another In its Heart, then eventually There WILL Be BLOOD at some point when the owner's Guard is Down ... I would never allow any Senior resident Dog of mine to ENDURE that kind of "Constant underlying background Tension" in its Own HOME Environment

What's my Point ??? It's simply that IF this UNHAPPY situation Cannot be Resolved and RIGHT NOW, then I would Re-Home cute little Fiona to a household in which she is the ONLY DOG -- Richard, this is nothing Personal ... Believe me, I am only thinking of Good ol' Molly who well deserves to live out her life at home with you IN PEACE

 Quote: Candi Campbell

There is NOTHING WORSE than a real Bitch Fight -- In the Akita breed, 2 females fighting TRULY Mean To KILL Each Other in a HOT MINUTE ... And even if a handler is SAVVY & LUCKY enough to Separate Them before one IS DEAD, those 2 bitches will NEVER Forget OR Forgive (!!!) Just PERSONALLY Speaking, I for One, would NOT enjoy having to Manage MY Home like a Zoo OR Prison 24/7/365 And I believe that Most PET Owners AGREE (folks with Working Dogs and/or Sports Dogs are often more willing to run their K9 households as "Gated Communities" on a crate & rotate regimen, but Not the average Pet owner, IMHO).

No amount of Obedience Training or even BELATED Pack Structure protocol can ALTER any dog's Genetic Wiring vis-a-vis how it will interact with another DOG when No HANDLER Is PRESENT -- If one bitch maintains ingrained DOM / AGGRO toward another In its Heart, then eventually There WILL Be BLOOD at some point when the owner's Guard is Down ... I would never allow any Senior resident Dog of mine to ENDURE that kind of "Constant underlying background Tension" in its Own HOME Environment

What's my Point ??? It's simply that IF this UNHAPPY situation Cannot be Resolved and RIGHT NOW, then I would Re-Home cute little Fiona to a household in which she is the ONLY DOG -- Richard, this is nothing Personal ... Believe me, I am only thinking of Good ol' Molly who well deserves to live out her life at home with you IN PEACE

My goodness Candi; your post is very provocative: the language, all the CAPS, the bold type, multiple !!! and ???, the faces. I really do appreciate your passion for dogs and your concerns for Molly, but things are not that bad, and there is slow but steady progress.

Our current arrangement is far from optimum, but Fiona has come along way in the past 6 weeks, and for the 1st 4 weeks we were just winging it (like most dog owners). Operation Tough Love (groundwork) has been ongoing for the last 2+ weeks and has been amazing in improving Fiona's disposition. We are now in the initial stages of exposing them to each other.

As for Molly, doing obedience training with her at the ripe old age of 13 is a blast. She has actually been getting more quality time with us since we got Fiona. Until a few months ago, she was virtually untrained (potty trained, sits, usually? comes when called...); now she is getting pretty solid with: come, sit, down, stay, roll over, leave it. We are also working on "place" or "go to your place". pretty cool...

You suggest that if we can't resolve the situation "right now", then we should re-home Fiona. I don't understand what you mean when you say "right now".

Speaking of "The Mall" (Molly), here she is on Fiona's dog bed, she's saying "take that Fiona..."

 Quote: Richard Boisvert

 Quote: Candi Campbell

There is NOTHING WORSE than a real Bitch Fight -- In the Akita breed, 2 females fighting TRULY Mean To KILL Each Other in a HOT MINUTE ... And even if a handler is SAVVY & LUCKY enough to Separate Them before one IS DEAD, those 2 bitches will NEVER Forget OR Forgive (!!!) Just PERSONALLY Speaking, I for One, would NOT enjoy having to Manage MY Home like a Zoo OR Prison 24/7/365 And I believe that Most PET Owners AGREE (folks with Working Dogs and/or Sports Dogs are often more willing to run their K9 households as "Gated Communities" on a crate & rotate regimen, but Not the average Pet owner, IMHO).

No amount of Obedience Training or even BELATED Pack Structure protocol can ALTER any dog's Genetic Wiring vis-a-vis how it will interact with another DOG when No HANDLER Is PRESENT -- If one bitch maintains ingrained DOM / AGGRO toward another In its Heart, then eventually There WILL Be BLOOD at some point when the owner's Guard is Down ... I would never allow any Senior resident Dog of mine to ENDURE that kind of "Constant underlying background Tension" in its Own HOME Environment

What's my Point ??? It's simply that IF this UNHAPPY situation Cannot be Resolved and RIGHT NOW, then I would Re-Home cute little Fiona to a household in which she is the ONLY DOG -- Richard, this is nothing Personal ... Believe me, I am only thinking of Good ol' Molly who well deserves to live out her life at home with you IN PEACE

My goodness Candi; your post is very provocative: the language, all the CAPS, the bold type, multiple !!! and ???, the faces. I really do appreciate your passion for dogs and your concerns for Molly, but things are not that bad, and there is slow but steady progress.

Our current arrangement is far from optimum, but Fiona has come along way in the past 6 weeks, and for the 1st 4 weeks we were just winging it (like most dog owners). Operation Tough Love (groundwork) has been ongoing for the last 2+ weeks and has been amazing in improving Fiona's disposition. We are now in the initial stages of exposing them to each other.

As for Molly, doing obedience training with her at the ripe old age of 13 is a blast. She has actually been getting more quality time with us since we got Fiona. Until a few months ago, she was virtually untrained (potty trained, sits, usually? comes when called...); now she is getting pretty solid with: come, sit, down, stay, roll over, leave it. We are also working on "place" or "go to your place". pretty cool...

You suggest that if we can't resolve the situation "right now", then we should re-home Fiona. I don't understand what you mean when you say "right now".

Sorry, I get excited & no disrespect intended ("nothing personal") -- It's just a writing style, but I'll work on "toning it down" ... And as I said before, my only concern in that latest post was for Molly's sense of safety & security in her senior years