Laura wrote: "When is the association between praise and a "non-aversive state" ever made in this relationship?"

There doesn't have to be a clobber on the way. The anxiety of just feeling the need to belong is enough of an aversive.

Corrections and pain just up the ante.

Didn't those descriptions of herding also include statements about "enforcing" and "imposing" the shepherd's rules on the young dog? Whether you physically correct a dog or do it verbally when it is a sensitive dog, or do it 'symbolically' using body posturing (heard many times that shepherds don't carry those staffs just so they look like Charlton Heston) makes no difference. It's aversive to the dog. But even if you never use aversives intentionally, the pack-driven dog ACTIVELY SEEKS approval from the higher ranking animal (us, in this case). That inner need isn't about seeking "joy", it's about seeking peace.

There's a reason terriers are a pain in the butt to train; they typically aren't subordinate. They don't give a whit whether you're "happy" with them or not. They don't seek your approval - they have their own and that's enough for them! They don't feel an inner anxiety about the pack structure like many herding dogs do, thus they aren't motivated to assure themselves of their status. They simply don't feel the same social pressure that the herders do (and other pack-driven dogs). But it is pressure, stress. Certainly doesn't mean that the dog only appreciates praise cuz it means you won't clobber them.

Well, we've already covered that -P is highly aversive to a driven dog. "Purely positive" folks like to pretend that they don't use aversives, but -P is aversive as all get out to a motivated animal.

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Well, we've already covered that -P is highly aversive to a driven dog. Driven or tractable?

Your post earlier said that "access to the flock" (I believe is how you put it) is one of the ways in which he controls the rewards. That sounds like -P to me.

Regardless, take away the flock completely, take it out of the picture and you are STILL left with an animal with strong inner needs for acceptance and approval by her pack leader. The greater this drive or need, the easier it is manipulated to our purposes. If the dog in your description is quite subordinate and has strong needs, she would subjugate her own prey needs to the pack leadership of the shepherd. She would be more driven to comply with his direction than she would to fulfill her other need to chase or bite. His praise and directions communicated an approval and social acceptance of her that apparently she was in very much need of or she would have fulfilled her other needs instead.

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Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:

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Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Well, we've already covered that -P is highly aversive to a driven dog.

Driven or tractable?

Driven, or if you prefer, highly motivated. To remove the object of his obsession (whether that's the ball, the helper, or the sheep) is very aversive to that dog. If the dog were only "tractable" but not highly motivated/driven, then it might only be a minor disappointment.

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Originally posted by Laura Sanborn:

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I guess I don't sense that dogs merely get off on praise because it tells them we're not going to clobber them. That certainly CAN be an association the dog makes, depending on the relationship. IMO survival drives like pack drive, prey drive, etc. involved strong positive emotions in the dog as well.

Laura

I forgot to comment on this before - I absolutely agree that these drives evoke strong positive emotions. I'm in total agreement. But I think where we differ is WHY they feel positive emotions. Relief from stress or fear can be a huge, powerful rush of positive feeling. You haven't come right out and said, but it seems like you feel they just like praise and it makes them happy.

If a handler works his dog in stoic silence, dogs with a strong pack drive will become more attentive, seeking approval, then they often become worried if this is not the norm. Is there a problem? Are we ok? Finally the handler doles out some heartfelt praise and the dog responds with a "joyous" outburst, leaping up on him, excited. Strong positive emotions clearly evident. but it was because the silence and lack of social contact with the hanlder made the dog slightly uncomfortable. When reassured of its social bonds, it is one very happy dog.

Compare that to the handler who pets and praises his dog all the time, very effusive in his praise, very social and happy with his dog but thus offering social contact and assurance all the time. That dog will usually react very little to the praise. It has little value; it brings little joy. Those handlers are often lucky to get a wag or two from a spoken word of praise or a pat on the head; whereas the dog who has some stress in his social relationship with his handler will react very strongly to even mild praise. It serves as a reinforcer because it relieves the aversive - stress.

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Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:

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Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:

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Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Well, we've already covered that -P is highly aversive to a driven dog.

Driven or tractable?

Driven, or if you prefer, highly motivated. To remove the object of his obsession (whether that's the ball, the helper, or the sheep) is very aversive to that dog. If the dog were only "tractable" but not highly motivated/driven, then it might only be a minor disappointment.

Right and here this is my biggest complaint about talking about –P removing the reward as punishment. The value of the reward changes in the context of the environment. Remove any reward from the situation is checked against perhaps the received reward and that reward could indeed have a higher value.

If we could talk to dogs verbally and say, "Now listen Sruffy von Kittypelter don’t chase cats when we are working or you will not get to continue play ball…and I KNOW how much you love and want your ball…"

The dog that really, really loves his ball of food would weigh the options and the higher value wins. Some times it is the ball some times the chase.

Some might even say, "Hey thanks for the snack now where is that cat!" after you use a -P where the situation would demand some sort of control.

-P’s are useful tool but I would not trust it as my sole controlling influence.