BETH YOU ARE STILL NOT GETTING IT. German/Euro Working Lines are not your best bet for doing "SERIOUS" work. They are your ONLY BET.

You keep repeating the same things. You are admitting the truth, but you are just ignoring the other fact. You don't want to believe those animals you have are pets and totally worthless for any other working task.

The American Show breeders are the one's that ensured this fact for you. They intentionally bred out the necessary drives that the dogs need in their temperments to work. Why did that happen? Because American dog owners did not understand the nature of the canine and they still don't. They don't understand aggression, they don't understand avoidance, they don't understand nerve, and they don't understand drive. All they can see in their dogs is what is impressive to look at. (beauty and form) All they know about temperment is a need for a docile house pet. One that under no circumstances posses any threat to themselves or others. Why, because they wouldn't know how to handle or train any other type of dog. If you can't understand it, you can't harness it. If you can't understand it, you can't control it. It is a thing that causes fear and apprehension. Lack of education, and desire, to understand the working shepherd has killed it in this country.

All healthy GSDs of every line have teeth, all of them have jaws that can grip, every last one of them has legs to move them about. All are dogs. The only important difference is the dogs mind and instincts that tell him how to use those structures. His working ability. His intrepidness, his sharpness, his desire to please, his drives to hunt/chase/kill/fight. That is what makes him a German Shepherd Dog. Not angulation or no angulation. Funny feet, coats, ears are all secondary.

In pursuit of the perfect/ideal working animal, one that already has all the necessary drives and nerve, we can begin to talk about conformation. You can discuss and evaluate opinions about the best possible forms, styles -whatever. But you can not discuss "opinions" about working dogs without first understanding the "facts" that go into making a working dog.

American GSDs can not do protection, shutzhund, police service, or real SAR work. The don't have that edge anymore, you have taken it away from them. Think about my earlier post about your new litter of pups. Think about your selection of parents. What was your motivation for breeding them? The AKC standard states that they must be animals capable of work. How close to that standard are you getting? But, then again what do you care? You won't be impressing any of your buddies in the Fancy with working ability anyway, so why bother. Right? You can always find some crackpot trainer to tell you that your dog is a great protection dog.

A lot of the American show GSDs only have gaiting in pulling and training, and no other training. I helped a handler once with his dogs and almost got my shoulders pulled out of their sockets as these dogs are only trained to pull and gait. At least the dog I showed 3 times had some training and control. He did not like the show ring as I think he is not an American dog. If anyone wants to see a picture of him, I can send you a copy by email, or a link to the site.

As for beauty, I don't think so as they are so over-angulated that they are actually ugly in form. Captain von Stephanitz would be spinning in his grave if he saw his beloved breed today.

VanCamp,

Let me get this straight....

Someone wants to work on getting protection back into the AmBreds and you are discouraging it? I thought that is what you wanted to see happen (refer to page one of this thread).

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lauren:
American shepherds are a very interesting bunch. Beth also posted something on the German shepherd ring board about wanting to breed her female to a coated male.

At least the male in question was part German. http://www.homestead.com/southpawpetcare/boone.html

10-05-2001 05:07
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He has such a lovely, dark face! Want to send him to Texas?? When I breed my bitch, Seren, I should probably breed her to a coat, since she is lacking ANY coat gene at all , much less a long-coat gene! Her hair is about 1/2 inch long AFTER she's grown it in. When she's blown coat she looks NEKKED!

I remember that - the stud dog who wasn't from home of the SAR dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's odd, but the average person in Santa Cruz county seems to have a better idea of what a GSD should be than the AKC!

I have a sable male out of Asko von der Lutter (2000 Weltsieger, also Bundesieger) with typical working dog conformation. And over and over again, I hear from people on the street: "Now that's a German Shepherd." Or, "What a beautiful dog; he looks so strong." And similar comments.

These are not dog "experts," just ordinary people responding to the reality of the vision Max von Stephanitz had a century ago.

Hey Rich, who did you see post here that wants to put protection back in the ASD? I must have missed that part?

Anyway, Lighten Up a little. That was, for the jokingly challenged, well . . . kinda like a joke 'er somthin. I must not be as funny as I think I am. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

There you go Officer Cannon, can I go home now?

I cleaned up all the funny ones.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think most people looking for a good dog end up with a show dog out of ignorance of the breed due to lack of research, or by getting duped by a breeder that says this dog "would be perfect for protection".

Should these people be encouraged to go out and join a protection club to find out what their dog is worth? Definately yes, all the sooner they will realize what they really have. After they find out what they have, should they be encouraged to then take that animal and breed it to try and put some working ability back into this line? No way folks. Captain Max and Luther Burbank would both shake their heads at the stupidity of trying such a thing when their is still perfectly good dogs to start with. The working lines are riddled with Dogs that will work and pass "conformation". Can the show people say the same about their dogs without lying through their teeth? I don't think so.

It would be nice if they called that dog by a different breed name, it's no longer even a shadow of its former self. Not only will they not do that, these breeders bold face lie to people when asked what their dogs are capable of (PSD my ass!). At least they give their kennels foo foo names so that I can tell right away what kind of clown is behind these breedings. But that too is changing so they can dupe some more folks into thinking that they can get a real GSD that will work, from them. It is amazing what breeders will put into their web page to imply things that are not true. :rolleyes: Highly unethical IMO

Damn fine point, Jason. Now I know why I like you so much. . .yoo speeekee mee language. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Good point Jason!

I was duped long ago myself by an ASD breeder. I was ignorant and was told that there was no difference between German/Euro dogs and hers! She bred all show & no go. Not only did I buy one, but the Sheriff department also. Pretty scary that a so called reputable trainer would take one of those dogs to train for the Dept.!