@Kevin + Robert
i see that happens alot
judge ALL to a few which passed someones way
I found out that it s not that short way of thinking about breeding
It aint 1+1=2
If so why wouldnt we just take the BSP winner to the Siegershow VA 1 female and booom
they are handsome and good.
You know that this isnt the way breeding works and for sure not judging a whole bloodline by just a few dogs.
One thing we never can make up against old breeders is the time of expirences they had , no matter what topdogs /producers we even have right now.
Not that i doubt your expirences , i am only against to make it sound like that this is that bloodline about.

I agree 100% with Jutta. Fero is no different than any other bloodline out there. It brings good and bad, no matter what you breed it with. I have had just about every bloodline and I have to say that of ANY dog I have ever had, the one that had the strongest nerves was a daughter of Fero. The worst I ever had was a Czech bitch through Gent o.d. Policie. I have also seen a LOT of health issues with the Czech dogs in general. Fear biting, noise sensitivity, LOW prey drive etc, are problems that I have seen in Czech lines. Yes there are nerve issues with some Fero lines, just like there are nerve issues with ALL lines. In my opinion, a good breeder uses those nerve issues and mixes them to make a better dog. Those freaky nerves, when mixed properly can make a hell of a dog!

I said: but I just don't jump up and down when I hear Fero this or Fero that. I do have a dog 4-5 on Askia, and 3-5 on Fero. why, because I liked the dog and the breeding...not because of Fero Mike Williams said: People's first instinct is to repeat what everyone else says. Fero's BAD?? oh my god! Where did I say Fero was good or Bad??? I said I had a dog linebred on him 3-5. However, it wasn't the Fero that made me get him...I liked what I saw in the total package. Also, if you follow my threads you will see I am looking for a Mink/Fero granddaughter. I happen to think the mixture might give me what I am looking for. If it is the proper mixture.

Mike Williams: Please tell me which modern day breeding dogs have done better???? Of that 2.7%, how many of those dogs WON,,WON,,WON the BSP? That should mean something shouldn't it?
I have posted this before...but here goes...

Eddy vom Vorderen Schalk 29 breedings 128 puppies 16 BSP competitors or 12.50%
Xento von der Maineiche 48 breedings 216 puppies 22 BSP competitors or 10.19%
Sagus vom Busecker Schloss 91 breedings 243 puppies 16 BSP competitors or 6.58%
Mink vom Haus Wittfeld 67 breedings 341 puppies 15 BSP competitors or 4.4%

Totals: 235 breedings 928 puppies 69 BSP competitors or 7.4%

So anyway...I went and looked up the total BSP winners...since you mentioned that...the 2002 winner had Fero, and Xento...so I didn't count that.

2001 Winner Fero blood
2000 Winner Mink blood
1999 Winner Fero blood
nothing until
1995 Which btw was Czech
93 and 94 Sired by Fero.

That is it. So out of Fero's personally sired 1181 puppies he had 2 BSP winners. Then you through in the total I gave you before with Fero, Troll, Yoschy, and Aly...you only get 2 more WINNERS.

Granted there are no winners sired by the four I mention. Although Ernst was sired by Lewis who also had a 4.52% BSP rate.

Again, Fero was used a ton...he will and has impacted the working GSD. I think by sheer numbers. I am rushing out the door, would be happy to get further into this.

BTW, VC I don't have all the numbers for Bernd, I do have he sired 35 BSP competitors which is the same as Fero...however, something tells me he wasn't bred 241 times like Fero.

Originally posted by Mike Williams:
I agree 100% with Jutta. Fero is no different than any other bloodline out there. It brings good and bad, no matter what you breed it with. I have had just about every bloodline and I have to say that of ANY dog I have ever had, the one that had the strongest nerves was a daughter of Fero. The worst I ever had was a Czech bitch through Gent o.d. Policie. I have also seen a LOT of health issues with the Czech dogs in general. Fear biting, noise sensitivity, LOW prey drive etc, are problems that I have seen in Czech lines. Yes there are nerve issues with some Fero lines, just like there are nerve issues with ALL lines. In my opinion, a good breeder uses those nerve issues and mixes them to make a better dog. Those freaky nerves, when mixed properly can make a hell of a dog! This is an intresting point I think. I have seen a lot of Fero line dogs. Worked a number too. What I have seen is the one's that are linebred are hectic. They are hectic in drive and are kinda too hyper. They are not clear. Now as the years are passing and we are getting alot more 3,and 4th generation Fero's I am seeing that the dogs are getting a lot better in certain combination. Alot of the nerve issue's are no longer a problem. I have seen a few dogs bred with and this is intresting I think, with Lord and these are some on the best dogs I have seen. They may not be points dogs for most trainers, but they are overall very nice strong dogs. They have great aggression and are not spooky.

What happend Todd? Mind go blank? Cat got your tongue?

You know me...lol

Anyway

Mikw Williams: Please tell me which modern day breeding dogs have done better???? Of that 2.7%, how many of those dogs WON,,WON,,WON the BSP? That should mean something shouldn't it?
To me, no that doesn't mean anything. So Fero had 2 dogs win the BSP...there are so many factors going into that...nature vs. nurture again. However, I think training, puppy rearing handling...maybe even politics(I know, I know, that would never come into play). There are so many variables it is crazy. People who bought a pup...promised they would train and compete and then got a divorce(as an example).

If we look at just numbers nothing else...I would say Fero 2 Mink 0.

Sounds like the Yankees last night. However, when you get deeper I believe Mink was a better producer. Did I come up with that because 'everyone' else did. Um, no. I think most people on here would agree I don't go for the popular opinion. Just looking at facts.(as I see them)

Okay even though I think we're kicking a dead horse, I'll answer this again.

Todd said: "To me, no that doesn't mean anything. So Fero had 2 dogs win the BSP...there are so many factors going into that...nature vs. nurture again. However, I think training, puppy rearing handling...maybe even politics(I know, I know, that would never come into play). There are so many variables it is crazy. People who bought a pup...promised they would train and compete and then got a divorce(as an example).

I thought that is how we were determining success in production?? Besides, what I was pointing to was the success not just by Fero, but also his offspring. Hey I breed with as much Mink as anyone out there and more than most and I like it a lot, but Mink blood is no magic bullet either. I guess what I want to say is that I am a Mink man also, but the best breedings I have seen and done have been mixing Mink-Fero or Mink-Troll,,,Yoschy etc. No they may not be the dog to win or even go to the BSP, but to me that isn't what makes a "GOOD" dog either. Good dogs are where you find them and none of them can read pedigrees.

Pillars of the breed are comparable to pillars of a building in many ways. I'm not one for analogous speech but stand by cuz this actually makes sense:

No one pillar of a building can support the weight of a building or roof alone. They, as many as need be, are equally responsible for load bearing. If one puts all the emphasis on Fero in a pedigree and allows Fero to be bred in again and again and again, the foundation for that breeding has become too dependent on that one dog, don't care if it's Fero, Mink, Sagus, Andy, Norbo or even Cliff Huhnegrab ( hadya like that one, Lee). There has to be balance.

VC made an interesting remark about 3/4 gen dogs from Mink; smallish, slanty eyes and head structure issues; he NEVER saw my dog but described him perfectly. There seems to be a "groupie" effect when a dog performs well ( or shows well in the Conf Ring). People's heads get caught between to warm pillows and they stop thinking......again, I speak from experience. Folks get very singularly minded when they have an opportunity to get into a bloodline they like. They ask about how much it will cost, not whether or not it is the right choice for them to breed to or not.

I care not to scroll back to who said it but I know there is a large gap between service dogs and sport dogs but to remark that sport dogs are not working dogs, let's be serious. Understand we are not comparing SCh and other similar sports work to pole weaving and flyball.

If the opportunity was possible, I would have dared any of these reality show idiots to go at it with Arek Stoffelblick after telling him he was only a sport dog and not a working dog.

Balance, balanance, balance.

The unfortunate reality of the genetics game is this; anything is possible in the theoretical or statistical world. To see what a PAIR ( much too much emphasis on the single contributor)will produce, the breeding has to happen and the dogs have to be trained, trialed and seen. The real world prob with this idea is that no matter what you do, besides expo fact culling, is that any pair is capable of producing its fair (and then some) of real crap.

VC said, and if I can paraphrase, that it takes experimenting with colors on a pallet to get the color you want and genetics are plainly not that simple.

Gordan posted; I care not to scroll back to who said it but I know there is a large gap between service dogs and sport dogs but to remark that sport dogs are not working dogs, let's be serious. Understand we are not comparing SCh and other similar sports work to pole weaving and flyball.
Who said anything about Pole Waeaving or flyball. :rolleyes:

Butch posted; Comes down to SPORT Dog or WORKING Dog doesn't it.
Now the discussion can get heated up again!!
Sometimes the term Working Dog can be misleading This is off topic so I'll not elaborate here.
BUT!! I'm not trying to be little thge Sport dogs or make the Woking Dogs any better. I guess Gordan has an issue with it. Sorry for saying anything about Sport Dogs. I do have aSport line bred bitch myself.