Hi Richard, I tried to access your e-mail but there seems to be a problem with my computer. Same thing happens when I try to access my own acct from the leerburg board this morning.

Please send me the info.

Thanks, Jerry

Jerry,

Actually, the method doesn't pattern train in the manner you are thinking. The reason being to achieve the final behavior you are after you have already rewarded a dozen other behaviors to get to that point.
An example would be training the retrieve using this method. The final result is a perfect retrieve, but before you reach this point you have rewarded the dog for numerous behaviors that aren't in the end behavior. An example would be simply touching the dumbell, or grabbing it and dropping it. These are not the desired behaviors but are used to build toward the desired behavior.

You asked about using clicker training with bite work and responses to the decoy. You are looking for an appropriate response to a particular situation. You can isolate with the clicker when the animal performs the desired response. Unfortunately, you are looking at a situation which will be hard to repeat. So as far a reactions to decoys you can use the clicker just not exclusively. Examples of training with the clicker would be with the out. You can use the clicker to establish the out while the dog is still on the tug. Once the dog is on the sleeve you can use the clicker to reinforce the out. Another use would be to click the dog for an appropriate bite. You are letting the dog know when he is using a full bite.
The clicker works better than your voice for several reasons. One, we use are voices all the time, and use praise for so many situations. The clicker is only used when the dog has performed the desired behavior. Two, as Dave pointed out the clicker is unemotional. Three, timing, your voice is not as quick and precise as a clicker.
Another thing is you don't need a clicker to clicker train. You can click with your mouth like horse trainers do, or use a ball point pen that will click. Deaf dogs have been clicker trained with flashlights. The point of the clicker is that it works as a marker. So any thing could be used that made a quick distinct sound.

I must point out that I haven't used the clicker with bite work, and am suggesting applications based on what I have seen work in other situations. Although, now I'm going to start training my puppy to out with the clicker. I'm, also, curious to see if anyone out there is training in protection or sport with a clicker, and what their experiences are.

One benefit of the clicker is that it creates enthusiasm and diminishes hesitation, which is the reason it is so popular in agility training. Agility is a sport in which you can lose by a 10th of a second. Correction can cause a dog to hesitate so people are very careful in how they use it. So many of the JRT people don't even have a reliable stay because of fear of diminishing enthusiasm. That's why they throw them over the start line and run like hell to catch up.

Skipper

Just one slight correction, Skipper. Operant conditioning is actually based upon the work of BF Skinner, and is also known as "Trial and Error Learning". Pavlov's work was in the field of Classical conditioning, aka "Respondent Conditioning". The key difference being that in Classical conditioning, the animal is conditioned to respond to a stimulus, and in Operant conditioning, the stimulus is the consequence of the animal's action.

J Parker,

Close. Operant conditioning refers to behaviors that are emitted (not of a physically required nature, the organism has a choice in the behavior). Classical/Pavlovian conditioning deals with behaviors that are elicited (physiologic, like a knee jerk, salivation). The animal has no choice in the matter. The reaction is paired to an unrelated stimulis.

That too.

Remember, the mind is like a parachute...it works best when it is open.

I have to remember that one.

Skipper,

Thanks for your very informative posts.

I'd be interested in how your efforts to use a clicker in protection training work out. I wonder if the clicker will be a sufficiently strong reward marker for correct behavior in protection training. A number of successful SchH trainers use the same operant conditioning learning principles as the clicker trainers, but without the clicker. For example, when the SchH dog is on the sleeve and does a fast clean out, the helper may immediately give the dog a bite+slip, or a bite+fight, as a reward. This marks and rewards through positive reinforcement just as a click-treat does. But it seems like in this circumstance the bite would be a much more powerful reward than a click (or praise) to mark the correct behavior, because it satisfies the drive. Good dogs are not food motivated during protection training (I've heard rumors of some weak dogs needing bacon grease coated sleeves to bite), so it's not clear to me how a click that's been previously associated with a click-treat food reward can be a powerful enough reward.

Laura

I don't believe you could just introduce the clicker and start training in bitework. The clicker would have to already have been established as a marker for desired behavior. That relationship is usually built with food, particularly since it is a universal drive in all animals. After the clicker is established as the marker for desired behavior you can use anything as a reward. Often balls or play time is used. The great thing about the clicker is you don't have to reward immediately.

One of the most difficult things to learn in clicker training is when to treat. You don't treat for every click. At the beginning you treat for every click of a desired response. But as the behavior is learned you begin to reinforce on fixed and variable schedules. Also, I should clarify that reward is not the correct terminology, reinforce is the proper term. Reward is understood much more easily by the majority so I like to you that term. Also, Jackpot reinforcement is used. When the dog wins big for performing a behavior that was particularly difficult, or the animal was having a hard time understanding. This could be playing tug or anything that is very desirable to that animal.

I must say that clicker training is so involved that to truly understand it you would need to study under a skilled clicker trainer, as well as read as a lot of literature.

Skipper

Clicker training is a great tool for training working dogs. I Have good experience training working and companion dogs with clicker. For companion animals, even the most stupid dog, with litle or none trainability can be trained in obedience. The only problem on clicker training for working dogs is that is based in food drive. I think working dog must be trained in real drives, depending on his age or maturity, like prey or fight drive. I click working dogs very young in age, as soon as he gets in touch with his new partner. Young pups with 6 weeks can be trained to come, to sit, down and heel with no compulsion. Compulsion is very important , when the dog will be correct in making mistakes, but you can do that later in life of the dog. Once you get the basic obedience nedded, I quit using the clicker. The dog will work for praise and for his real drives: protection, fight, etc. I agree clicker is not a miracle, and canot be used alone in training a good working dog, is just an excellent start. :rolleyes:

One of the most difficult things to learn in clicker training is when to treat. You don't treat for every click. At the beginning you treat for every click of a desired response. But as the behavior is learned you begin to reinforce on fixed and variable schedules. Also, I should clarify that reward is not the correct terminology, reinforce is the proper term.

Skipper:
Important addition to your last post.

Jason sound familiar? LOL.