Originally posted by Vince P.:
I think the original question was if the dog would become collar wise. You can correct this by having the dog wear a prong collar at times outside of training. This is a good point by Vince that got lost in the shuffle.

Michael,

Although I agree with many of your statements regarding compulsion, I don't think you'll ever gather up too much support on the sharpened prong thing. It's a shame that even had to come up because as I said, you make some good points about the anti-compulsion high horse that a lot of trainers seem to be on. The sharpened collar thing....I have to draw a line there.

You are right, at some point in life all dogs must have compulsion if to be reliable. However, I think what people(myself included) are saying...is the compulsion does not require a sharpened prong. I don't care how hard the dog is I can get through to it by other means.

Thank you for your support Chuck.LOL. I think that the sharp-prong makes people cringe as the sound of it,it sounds nasty. The same can be said and is for the electric. I thought the same thing until I saw for mayself. I don't think that most people really understand pressure and complusion. Not saying that those who don't go the sharp route are stupid. But open-mindedness is the key to learning training methods.

I don't have a clue? So you didn't mean that as an insult right? No disrespect?

Sharpened Prong. . .

If you think that is a good idea. . .then. . .well. . . you know what I think of you.

(disrespect intended)

Todd is right, then are better ways to get it done.

I find with some dogs it makes the point clear to the dog. I like to get the message across without having to jerk the dog 30 of 40 times whne the dog understand but does not obey. If I have to use a sharp-prong then so be it.

Of course Bernhard would get brought into this. I have been to just about all of Bernhard's seminars. Including the one he brought Itor. I have seen Bernhard give quite a few corrections. There is no doubt he is firm and fair. I certainly don't remember him putting Itor down in any way to make someone cringe, however, unless he picked him up by the genitals and put him back I don't think the comparison works.

Whatever Van Camp, "Your way or the highway".?

Sorry bro, in this case. . .YES.

I am not saying I agree or condone this, but I have even read articles and Q & A where Ed himself has mentioned sharpening the prongs for really hard dogs.

I wouldn't do it, but then again, I probably wouldn't own that dog either... I'll stick to my ugly little cream puff.

Problem with ideas like this is that they get into the wrong hands. Back in my grooming days I used to groom a Lhasa Apso(yes, one of those lap dogs) where the owner had decided to use the sharpened prong... I picked up the dog like usual on friday and noticed that Winston stunk to high heavens... when I got the dog in the tub it became obvious that the stench was coming from the dogs neck where he had suffered PUNCTURE WOUNDS and they had become abcessed... That, in my humble opinion, is nothing more than abuse.

This is a freaking Lap Dog we are talking about.

Then there are the people that correct with a prong by slamming the dogs head into their knee with a subsequent YANK on the leash at the same time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />