The only "social aggression" useful for a working dog would be aggression that was directed at humans.

Dog aggression is a terrible liability to a working dog.

Sue:
I train with Carl Smith and Dave taylor. I train sometimes at Dave's club and mostly privately at Carl's house. How did you know that Bonnie was the dam of my dog? Bonnie is great, she is a willing worker with awesome speed and power in protection. I like working her. Carl actually let's me do some helper work on her, and she's fun, I tell ya!

Vancamp:
I agree that the social aggression needs to be directed toward humans in good protection dogs and dog aggression is undesireable. My dog's aggression is only out of control at the house because of her high pack drive to be leader. Like I said before, she is fine at the training field and fine at the vet. She was never attacked as a puppy. Hell, she always picked on my 2yr. male when she was only 3-4 mos. old. But in the car and at the house, she needs to be supervised and kept under control. I think that she is also very territorial, like a male. That's my opinion. Maybe Im wrong.

Sorry Sue, forgot to mention that I just put her "B" on her and it went well. She was awesome. I was complimented by the judges on her excellent obedience. It was my first trial so I was pretty excited. I'll tell you that I like the dogs I have seen that come through Orry. I have heard mixed things about these dogs, some of it bad. But I have nothing bad to say about these dogs, neither does anybody I train with. There obedience is awesome. they are willing workers with stabel nerves and clear heads. Good aggression also. I have also noticed that they are slow to mature and the retrieve drive could be better, but other than that I would recomend those lines to anybody wanting a super working dog.

 Quote:

Originally posted by patricia powers:

what i really like to see in a dog is the self-assurance and confidence that other dogs will not even challenge, therefor no need for any display of social aggression. maturity is required here. the dog is controlled and self-disciplined. he acknowledges the presence of other dogs, but is not interested in them. he has the attitude of, "i don't start fights, but i finish them." i personally, don't have much patience with a dog that is challenging other dogs all the time.

Sorry Patrica, but this seems like a long shot to me. I mean, to expect a dog to be "self-disciplined" and to think like you mentioned is retarded. I know it is possible but when your dealing with the dogs we are talking about(strong working dogs) this is not going to be the case all of the time. There are too many variables to the equation. I mean, dogs have different degrees of pack drive(I like using this phrase because it best describes the dogs willingness to be TOP DOG). It has been my experience that dogs, not all dogs, but most from good solid working lines have to be tought at a young age how to act in these encouters. I agree that a dog that wants to eat up another all the time is a pain, and everyone wants a dog that is not interested(aggressivly) in them but it is up to the handler to act according and to show the dog that this is not acceptable. This might not always be the case so this argument has a margin for error. From the info and opinions on this topic it seems to me that this social aggression is a two edged sword. You get this social aggression toward dogs and humans. I do not think that this dog aggression is undesirable at all, because it is controlable unless, of course, the dog has been traumatized and attacked by a dog, especially at a young age, then you have something different you have to deal with. I feel that this has alot to do with social aggression so I would like to hear more peoples opinions on this.

you openly admit that your females's aggression is out of control at home and then have the nerve to tell me that my thinking is retarded :rolleyes:

Since this is my first gsd, I can only speak to my experience with her, but she's pretty typical of what I'd expect, and so very stable and predictable that I find her a joy to live with. Even if my AKC friends think I should beat her up to make her "play nice".

Tig is a very high prey drive, handler hard, confident dog. She is dominant with other dogs, especially bitches. I got her at 11 months. She sees me as boss and knows that if a dog needs "eaten", I'll do it for her.

She works fine around other dogs -- when she's working. When she's not working (and doesn't think I'm paying attention) she's more than happy to stir shit and needle other dogs. She will never be "friendly" with other dogs, and I don't particularly care. She's clean when she's working. She doesn't have "playtime" with other dogs, she's my playmate.

Not so different from the hunting sighthounds I grew up with, who hunt together fine, but can't be trusted to idle around together.

That, after all, seems correct to me. We're not talking about a breed that was meant to lie back to back with another dog for hours in a duck boat. No farm dog worth her dinner is going to welcome strange dogs coming around.

She's not so different with people than she is to dogs, unless they are kids (which she is soppy in love with). If she knows I'm watching she ignores them. Otherwise she applies that kind of hearty dominance behaviour that most non-dog people think is "friendly".

They are usually puzzled when she abruptly starts ignoring them (they can't see the "Duh, stupid wuss!" look on her face when she walks away <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ), or I call her away from them. Knowing her behaviour for what it is, she doesn't "play" with people outside the family, and I don't let her hang around anybody she's "interested" in.

The key for me is that when she's working -- she works -- and when she's not she's a little devil.

...obedient to the slightest nod when at his master's side, but when left to his own devices the maddest of rascals, the wildest ruffian & an incorrigible provoker of strife. -- Capt. Max v Stephanitz

ruffian and incorrigible aren't normally used as positive descriptors, although they're a long way from viscious or out of control.

seems to me that having a dog that requires a watchful eye and at times cautious handling to keep them from starting or getting into some sh*t might not be that far off from the original plan.

Sorry patricia, I didnt mean to say your thinking is retarded. Thats the beauty of this board, to let your opinions fly. But I still dont agree with you. I should not have said my dog was out of control, I embellished a little. I did not exactly mean it that way, because she is not uncontrollable to me, but she very well could be labeled just that with a novice soft tempered handler. I could care less if my dog tries to establish dominance at home, this is not that big of a deal to me. I will control that. I have accepted the fact that when you get involved with working dogs expect: NOT TO HAVE JUST A PET but a high drive working animal!! Now, Im not one to do this, but for all you people who like to quote from Ed's site(Jenn, are you listening), go to the article titled "Introducing new dogs into your home"(something to that nature) and it will tell you that a new dog must be crated when being introduced. This is the only way, and if your dog shows any aggression then they get a hard correction. This may take weeks or months to get the dogs used to each other. THIS IS NORMAL BEHAVIOR. It took my dog several weeks to get used to a new dog that was in the crate or kennel and I still did not keep them together afterward. My dogs dont need to run around together anyway. It is up to me to control who they are to play with and who to be aggressive to. At least the aggression is there and I can control it as I see fit. Im starting to like social aggression and I find it very desireable.

Patricia and Jenn: sounds like you need a Lab or a golden retriever with no aggression not a working german shepherd, you may get the dog you are looking for. But your still not going to get a dog that is "self disciplined".

Well I am going to have to get used to the 'working dog' terminology.

With my agility background and more AKC obedience (that's what I've been told is my limited background), when I read

"... obedient to the slightest nod when at his master's side, but when left to his own devices the maddest of rascals, the wildest ruffian & an incorrigible provoker of strife. " -- Capt. Max v Stephanitz

the part I bolded is that your dog is trained to listen and obey the owner when they are in the room. My limited experience would say that I should be able to have my dog listen and STOP fighting when I enter the room (with a slight nod).

But now I'm learning that for a real WORKING dog, a slight nod is a bit more extreme and includes will T-off with the dogs and she will attack them and not let up, even if I try to beat her off of the dogs. So what Max meant by 'slightest nod' was actually that the fact you have to beat your dog and it still won't listen is a desireable trait.

I have no issues that our dogs do not have to be friendly Goldens and Labs with every other dog and human they meet, sorry if that was how I was read. I realize there is quite a lot of dog/human aggression that pops up in the lines.

I find the MANAGEMENT and control of these drives to be what our training should be about. I'm a bit confused how the 'rules' of engagement and behavior in the home as far as listening to the owner/handler. I've always expected my dogs to behave and listen to me both within and outside of the home. Once again though, it may be a 'working dog' issue that inside the home the dog can rule, as long as he/she behaves and listens outside the home.

Ok, so this is what I have learned.

1. Working dogs do not have to listen in the home if they do not want to. Because of all the good drives and aggressions bred into them they cannot be expect to listen and mind in the home.

2. A 'slightest nod' for a working dog may sometimes be construed to be 'beat'

3. No dogs are ever 'self-disciplined'

4. If you do not agree with Howard you are 'retarded'

5. Only people that train for Schutzund know anything about 'working' dogs

See, I am learning! (and I changed my signature quote, is it ok now or do I need to find another one everyone likes better?)

The, um, "slight nod" might work BEFORE my lady started pulling hide, but once the fight is on, only holy hell would break it up.

I've lived with more good dogs than I care to count, and I've never meant one that a "slight nod" would break out of a fight.

You couldn't break up a fight between my Mom's AKC obedience title shih tzus like that!