Most of you seem to be arguing this point

The only unnatural act for a dog would be obedience. The dog can bite, sniff, jump,

Lou,
The fastest way that I have found to bond with a dog is food, play etc. Most dogs will not bite uless there is a rank issue, and this is not uncommon. I really feel that a lot of people over-react to a dogs little nip, as it was them who caused it in the first place. Most problems arise I feel is when people do not spend time walking, playing, feeding etc, with a dog, beforew training starts, and the bond is formed, and they let the dog get awwy with little things and it builds from there. Then you have kicking and fights, growling and bites. I have seen a dog that came from Europe and the new oowner had him for about a two months. He was the type of dog that needed to bond with his handler, and the guy just went right to ball- complusion Ob with him and then growls etc. started. well this dogs former trainer came for a seminar and the dog poped right into line took commands with no problem. I feel there is a bond issue with alot of dogs that people over look, and cause more problems then should have happenend.

Mike,your comments on bonding are something I come across often with Rescue dogs,were the owner has never given the dog a chance and then wonders why they get a bite.
A question,do you believe that any dog will bond with any person.

To Paul:
I do not believe that a dog will bond with anyone or the other way around. Dogs tend to bond with certain people. I believe that it depends on everyones temperment. Although there are dogs, that will love anyone just about, there are people that are skilled that can work the vast majority of dogs to an acceptable degree but which will from a bond of some sorts, or rather respect for one anther, it is a very broad subject whne pulled apart. I had a dog that this dog would growl if anyone else would walk him at them just to warn them don't screw with me, he was bonded to me, never a problem, Phil Hoelch took the leash at a seminar and the dog worked for him with no problems, so it depends, on the skill level, and the animal.. What do u think,

Mike,I fully agree with you,I have dare I say a very good Rottie bitch who acts in a similar way and any correction on the leash from another handler will result in strong growling,yet a military handler I know can work her without problems.
If we are honest dogs are in some ways like us they also dont get on with everyone but as you say a good handler can overcome this to a workable level.
And by the way this Rott whilst good at what she does is also easily stressed if pushed.

In the first post Lou asked for questions especially if there is a disagreement. Well, I don't think I have any questions and I don't really disagree with anything Lou wrote. However, I do have a suggestion that I hope may contribute to the discussion.

I suggest that "cooperation" be added to "trust and respect" when speaking of the working relationship between dog and handler. Perhaps "cooperation" is meant to be implied in the discussion but "control" is what comes across to me more from some posts. In a pack endeavor, or a team effort, trust and respect achieve fullest expression through cooperation -- ie. through a task/goal-oriented cooperative effort. BTW "task/goal-oriented" is the key here. Let me try to explain how I arrive at this.

I started in AKC obedience 20 years ago. Competition trainers often recommended teaching the dog exercises by breaking the exercises down into as many separate behavioral components as possible, then training the dog to perform the components for the precision needed to win at trials. This made great sense to the human part of the team, but I dare say it didn't make much sense to the canine part. To the dog a lot of drilling often resulted in an adversarial relationship with the handler -- and, so, food, balls, toys, etc. came into use in an effort to improve "attitude" in the dog -- JMO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Dogs didn't have to really think in this kind of relationship -- they only had to obey.

About 15 years ago I got interested in schutzhund. More thought was given to what the dog brought to the party as far as drives and behaviors were concerned, but, still, the training started with most of the emphasis on command/control methods. BTW let me make clear that I have no problem with command/control training -- as most things it certainly has its use -- the word "started" is the operative word in that sentence IMO.

Then, about 13 years ago I got interested in large flock sheep herding as practiced in Germany with GSDs and my perspective on training methods started to change. I happened to be lucky enough to be able to learn from a shepherd who won the SV national herding championships 14 times in 30 years. This man taught me the value of selecting for pure high prey drive in a dog balanced by an equally strong "willingness-to-please" attitude. Most importantly, he taught me the importance of NOT destroying or distorting those drives in the training process. For anyone interested, all this is explained in detail on my web site http://www.german-shepherdherding.com.

This was a long way of getting to the point of "cooperation". But, finally, here we are. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Without getting into the specifics of selecting for PPD,PSD, SAR, herding, etc., IMO most dogs have an array of drives and behaviors that they are born with as part of their basic genetic canine package. It is what motivates dogs to use their drives and behaviors that is important. IMO "cooperation" has the greatest potential for motivating the broadest spectrum of drives and behaviors -- IOW cooperation allows the handler to tap into the dog's total reservoir of drives and behaviors and to draw out what is needed for any particular job at any particular time. But, in order to activate the mood/drive of cooperation, there must be a clearly definable task or goal or job to be done -- the team leader (man) defines that task. IMO task-oriented training taught by methods that strengthen the man/dog bond of cooperation are the most productive way to develop a dependable working dog because cooperation infers a decided willingness on the part of the dog to work with and for his partner.

In short, I went from training pieces of jobs first and putting them together later, to setting up a task and inviting the dog to join with me in a cooperative effort to get it done. BTW cooperation earns the dog freedom so the dog learns responsibility as well. Precision in the performance of the task is taught gradually once the general concept of whatever task has been learned. Once the concept of the task has been learned and the dog's drive and confidence has been developed to full potential, then the stress of precision training can be handled without risking the loss or distortion of drive. It works in herding -- maybe it would work in other jobs.

As if this weren't long enough <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I have a couple of comments on some of the things said about food,play and self-interest.

IMO utilizing food and play are only the first steps on the road to establishing a working relationship based on trust and respect in a new or young dog. A strong lasting bond of trust and respect IMO must be mutual and can only be realized to its fullest potential by building on a bond of cooperation in the performance of some common endeavor as well. In the wolf pack food and play are just the beginning of the social bond started with pups. As pups grow, food and play serve to help establish and then reinforce the rank order in the pack. But, IMO cooperation among adult pack members in the hunt is what above all else binds and bonds the individuals together as a unit at a higher level. IMO cooperation and "self-serving"/"self-interest" are NOT mutually exclusive. That's probably why someone came up with the idea of division of labor based on specialized skills. Wolf packs may not use that term but they sure practice it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> -- they have jobs divied up on a hunt -- certain individuals are better at one job than another allowing individuals to pool their skills and contribute them to the pack and to the kill/the good of the hunt. Why couldn't this be the same in the man/dog cooperative relationship?

I subscribe to teaching methods which are more conducive to bringing out what is naturally in the dog (aimed at developing the dog's genetic tendency to cooperate using predisposed drives & behaviors natural to the particular dog in the execution of whatever task it is being trained to do) -- as opposed to putting in something that is not natural to the particular dog (ie. compulsive or coercive training methods to make the dog perform behaviors not natural to it).

I look at training in the context of "cooperation" -- I value a quality that I call a "willingness to please" in a working dog -- meaning a dog that wants to work in COOPERATION with man -- a dog that is willing to accept mans's leadership and, in doing so, perform in response to man's direction willingly and joyfully. It implies a COOPERATIVE nature that takes pleasure in group (pack) activites.

By willingness to please I do not mean to imply a willingness to please EITHER self OR other -- I mean to say a willingness to please BOTH self AND other -- cooperation within a group or pack. By my way of thinking, every group or pack must have a leader to be effective in performing any group/pack activity. Without a leader there would be little or no coordination of effort.

IMO a good leader (dog or human) is one that is able to command respect not by force (bullying or coercion) but by being able to *channel* all the individual drives and energies brought to the group by each member of the group into a cooperative, team effort in which EVERYONE is pleased, EVERYONE wins and EVERYONE benefits.

Ellen Nickelsberg

Holy Crap!!!!!!!

Nice topic, Lou,

Too bad it turned into "I'm a better trainer than you". Its amazing how so many are easiliy baited into these arguements.

***Once the concept of the task has been learned and the dog's drive and confidence has been developed to full potential, then the stress of precision training can be handled without risking the loss or distortion of drive. It works in herding -- maybe it would work in other jobs.****

Ellen-

Thank you very much for your insightful contribution. Although I'm strictly a SchH junkie, I've been fascinated by herding for quite a while and learned a lot from your website. My interest in herding for now is purely academic, as soon as I found out that accommodating 200+ sheep on 1/3 of an acre would create a problem with the city ordinance <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . However, herding being the foundation of our breed, there is a lot we can learn from those who work hard to maintain this old and noble tradition, "cooperation" being one of them. You seem to have achieved that.

We never met, but I spoke to someone who visited your farm in NY and was very impressed by the fact that at one point you left your dogs with the flock for two hours, had a leisurely lunch and came back to find everything in order. Now, this is what I call "cooperation, trust & respect".

Is it possible to achieve such level of cooperation in other disciplines, I wonder? I can only speak for the sport, and what I see more often than not is lack of cooperation, more like an adversary relationship between a handler and a dog. We use so many different training techniques, from motivational to strict compulsion and everything in between, which seem work to a point. But I've seen a number of dogs who become so trial-savvy, that no matter how perfect they look in training with an e-collar on, as soon as it comes off, they flip their handler a big finger.

However, herding is a task-oriented job, as you have mentioned. Can SchH be regarded as a task-oriented job, also? And if it is, how can it be explained to a dog? Well, anyway, this is something to think about. Thanks for the opportunity.

 Quote:

However, herding is a task-oriented job, as you have mentioned. Can SchH be regarded as a task-oriented job,
also? And if it is, how can it be explained to a dog? Well, anyway, this is something to think about.

It is something to think about and I'm sure everyone has their own ideas <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (I like these little faces

Getting back to the subject <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Too much FUN, Ed :rolleyes:

For me, tracking is one of the best exercises for working on cooperation. IMO it's the closest thing to the hunt. You can make it fun and a joint effort in the beginning and share in the excitement of finding the prize at the end -- finding the prize is a task.

Protection is another area where you can work with the dog by encouraging him in all the exercises especially when he is on the sleeve -- finding, holding, overcoming, capturing & escorting the bad guy are all tasks.

Even obedience exercises can be started as games -- including the most boring of all -- heeling. If you can make heeling a game of "escape" by trying to evade the dog (rapidly changing pace, reversing direction, trying to get away from the dog every time he takes his attention off you, etc.). Even tho' this is a game, it still gives it some purpose to the dog.

Ellen Nickelsberg