Thomas, you are NOT taking an engineering approach. To suggest that is to bastardize a noble profession. You are taking the position of an economist. Give the people what they think they want. An engineer gives people what is NEEDED.

Have you ever considered that the GSD is more of a "brand name" than a dog that should suit everyone? If they don't want a working breed then get a bichon! What if Tiffany's started selling cut rate jewelry? It would make people happy at first, but would it contribute to the long term viability of the brand? NO!

The engineering approach would be to identify the distinguishing characteristics of the breed and how they related to function.

As a working farm dog the GSD needed - Strong nerves, functional structure, trainability, drives, health, protective nature

The breeder would rank the goals

Then the breeder would do a careful analysis of all available dog to determine how well they met each of the goals. Both dogs in a breeding pair must posess the top one or two traits, and at least one must possess the other important traits.

Then they would find others that had the same goals and ideals that might be interested in the puppies, and do the breeding. Engineering is about defining and surpassing vital specifications, not being all wishy washy and trying to follow the flavor of the week as you suggest. The canine engineer would have a long term plan and goal, and would not breed flavor of the week people pleasers that would be the downfall of the breed. Engineers create solutions, not problems.

Candace, I think you need to learn how to spell Schutzhund first.

Lauren, that certainly is an interesting take on engineering. In a free society, engineering without economy is called a failed product. In government programs it is known as the $9000 toilet seat. In East Germany it was called the Trabant. The Trabant is definitely a fine example of high-minded people engineering something people "need", instead of engineering for what people want.

Engineering is nothing more than taking science and theory and making it useful. The approach I described could be considered a system engineering approach. But the key with any engineering is that you design the system and use that to define the parts. What you do not do is design the parts and somehow hope that it turns into a system, that would be the Dr Frankestein approach.


Lauren you say that ‘if they don't want a working breed then get a bichon’. I swear that sounds an awful lot like "let them eat cake". That said, I do understand the "brand name" frustration. I can just see a lot of the people here with very expensive highly trained dogs getting really po'd when some walks up to them (with a show dog in tow) and says, 'oh, I have a German Shepherd too.

Now how one responds to such a situation speaks volumes. One could strike up a conversation and nicely point out the differences and maybe make a convert. Or one could real back in anger, and then set out on a dictatorial path to force people into conversion. Or one could see it as an opportunity to create their own brand name.

Lauren, if what you are breeding for and the results you get are really on the high end of what people need and desire, then create your own breed name and trademark it. I think naming it the "LAUREN SHEPARD" would sound good. With the trademark, you would have complete control. I don't know if something like that has happened yet in the dog world, but be sure that it is coming.

Thomas, do you know how frustrated people are when they buy a "GSD" and it isn't what it was 20, 40 years ago? Consistency is key. If the breed becomes less popular the dedicated fanciers will celebrate. The breeding restrictions in Germany sure haven't hurt the breed, and they have in fact helped the breed because of the consistency. There are enough people that want a GSD the way it was that the breed could flourish even more without the bastard dogs masquerading as GSDs, because these people would consider a GSD instead of another breed now that they didn't have to wade through as much crap to find a decent GSD.

Name the show dogs something else and continue with them if you want, but they are not GSDs. Make it easy for people to find what they want without ruining the GSD and it's rich history. You wouldn't believe how many people I have heard say that they wanted a GSD, and ended up getting a show dog by mistake. I even fell into this trap and it is enough to make many people abandon the GSD altogether.

Without consistency you have nothing. There are some breeds/breeders that I will not even consider because although they have produced nice dogs, they have produced some crap too. The breed needs to be consistent to flourish.

Would you be happy if you bought a porsche and they rolled a minivan out for you? Same deal. Without consistency NO ONE will want a GSD. As an engineer the most fundamental part of your job is to meet minimum expectations, and that is where you have failed. Maintaining your current "customers" is MUCH easier than finding and keeping new ones. If you focus too much on a "new" GSD you will loose the most important part of the fancier base. I fear that the GSD has already passed the point of no return at this point, since many of the people I talk to own or are at least considering owning other breeds as well. They know that the GSD is becoming an inconsistent and therefore useless breed.

I understand your frustration. But what exactly makes you think that you are the proper guardian of the breed? Or that what you are doing is consistent with breed history? Are you breeding for sheep herding trials? I believe those who breed for sheep herding have a higher claim to breeding true than most others. Lauren would you accept it if the herding people wanted to ban you for the same reason you want to ban others? I also believe the people who breed protection animals have a better claim to protecting the breed than people who breed for Schutzhund. What if they wanted to ban you for destroying the breed? Of course then there are the Schutzhund people wanting to ban all those "below" them.

My advise would be instead of fretting over what others do with their dogs, think about how good the GSD really has it. It is one of the few working breeds that really still has some semblance of a healthy working dog market. The way you improve the lot of the breed is by improving that market, you can't do by trying to destroy an unrelated market.(no matter how frustrating that other market might be). I would point out to you that it is your kind of rationale that led to people breeding for Schutzhund (under the false belief it would protect the breed). The result of that rationale has forced Germans to look to Belgium for dogs. Just another example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" And while it is one thing to follow your own good intentions in to hell, it definitely is another to force people along with you.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Mincher:
My advise would be instead of fretting over what others do with their dogs, think about how good the GSD really has it. It is one of the few working breeds that really still has some semblance of a healthy working dog market.

That is highly debatable. Last week I was asking a campus police officer about the dog they have here, and the dog is a Mal because of all of the hip problems in GSDs (and possibly other problems too, didn't have time to ask for more detail or explain my familiarity with the breeds). I make no claim to be the guardian of the breed, but there is no such thing as a show farm dog. I do not think that SchH is perfect, but it is far above breeding shat nerved pets like most americans do because there is no system in place to stop and educate them. I HAVE talked to herding trainers, and nerves are a huge priority. While we can never make the dogs exactly the same as they were, there are OBVIOUS traits in certain types now that are completely incompatible with working. I make no claim to being able to produce a perfect woring animal, but as anyone can see that enjoys dogs there are some types that are so far from the intentions of Stephanitz that they can never be returned and should no longer be called GSDs. It's that simple. Within the working lines I am all for diversity, but to have other types that are so incompatible that they are never crossed all called the same breed is foolishness.

I am all for the breed splitting, but until it becomes official the "breed" should follow a common goal that Stephanitz set for it.

I pretty much agree with your assesment. But I disagree with it being 'foolishness' to have a seperate gene pool. As long as they don't cross into your gene pool, I see no problem. I actually see a benefit, you have something you can breed back too when murphy's law pops up. The previous Basenji example I gave shows the value of that.
As far as follwoing V. Stephanitz lead, the world is full of people who fervently believe they follow Jesus' teaching too, yet many point to each other as heretics.

When Murphy's law happens, the working GSD would benefit more from Mals than show lines, so there is no benefit to keeping them as the same breed. It only puts show enthusiasts in charge of making important decisions for the working lines, and this is disaster as we have already seen.

Lauren,I have tryed to be as polite as possible..and maintained in it.You immediately bashed me.. Now yet again you want to instigate..on spelling..Give me a BREAK!!!You obviously..have alot of anger...and you are hurt.I am sorry for your dogs passing. Do not look down your nose at me...I am more intelligent than you think I am.It appears to me that you are somewhat confused.Do not judge me Based upon your fear and anger.Your judgement is a wisp in the wind..as there is no basis...because of your lack of knowlege...oops mispelled hahahah Do not place the originator as a cornerstone unless you understand..his open mind..at that time in history.He was an engineer without a degree.So don't bash the engineer sense of things.The one thing that you MUST recocgonize in life..is that there are no master trainers nor breeders.If you think there are..then you and your dog has lost.Breeding and training is an artform. I do hope if you respond..you may question about the individual dogs I have..and their progress...individually.That would be a positive gesture. Candace

OK, this has gone on- and on- and on- and frankly I am tired of reading this garbage.

This is so far gone from the original topic...


BAM!