Tracy:
"I don't think Max's envisioned every German Shepherd would be super hard dogs. Some of the jobs gsd perform require finesse, so its up to us to breed for what we need. I think he was looking at creating a WORKING dog that could perform well enough at all jobs required so, you didn't have to have feed 3 dogs. How many super hard dogs would you trust to track a missing small child would you let that dog out of your site."

Ummm...you do know that Max would draw his pistol at dog shows and chase weaker dogs out of the show, right? That would remove 50% of showlines dogs right there. And why couldn't a super hard dog track a missing child?


"I personally want a dog that I can control with med high drive and solid nerves that can be taught to perform. If you constantly over breeding strong drives don't you risk getting dogs that most handlers cant live with without ruining it. It seems to me a novice that super high drive dogs need more and better training to get control over."

The word there is novice though. Don't you think it's unfair to an entire breed to lower it's working ability so that you personally can work and own one? Again, people desire a dog that looks like a working dog and acts *almost* like a working dog - but is weakened and dumbed down so that a less skilled handler can own it. What an American attitude. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Why not learn your handling skills and perfect them on a softer breed until you can handle a work dog at the level and drive that it's meant to be at ( and that is *not* a direct slur on Tracy, I think it holds true for many, many handlers - Tracy may be a good handler for all I know, I've never met him. )

I respect your opinion Will and listen to any advice you have. Somewhere in this long discussion something must have gotten lost.

No where have I said you or anyone should weaken the breed. I have simply said breeders do not have to bred extreme dogs. When I hear the word extreme it means a unsafe dog (handler aggressive) short fuses. If, you are going to bred extreme dogs you will have to sooner or later have to throw in the mix, a dog to take off rough edges. Even experienced handlers will not work with unstable dogs they can't trust.

What I advocated was to take dogs that excel in all three phases of sch and bred to good solid high drive females or the opposite. I personally think breeders should truthfully evaluate there dogs. Find its true strengths and weaknesses. Breeders should find the best stud or female to fill in the weaknesses but by no means did I say use an unfit or low drive dog.

As for as Max, shooting a gun at dog shows and running off weaker nerve dogs I wish someone would step up and do it now. But, not just at dog shows but at sch trials when they pass weak dogs.I still do not think he envisioned his bred to be super hard dogs that only the military or police needed.

One job for the GSD during most of Max's life was as a farm dog. Extreme dogs would have kill livestock. Thus giving that dog a death sentence. I think Max envisioned a stable high drive dogs with good nerves that could work multiple jobs well.Plus be a good family dog.

I mis spoke I should have said, I prefer a mid high drives that can be built up. For me the relationship of building drive strengthens the bond between owner and dog. Something just sending your dog off to a trainer can't do.

I currently have a 16 month old female that has high prey, play, search drives and focus and a firm bite. I have never work tracking with her because it is hard to lay tracks by the rules in a wheelchair. Living in the sticks where the nearest place to train with people who have experience is about 3hrs one way. I bought her with the intention of training her to be my service dog that could also protect. So, far so good. Through the use of Ed's tape and the help of a retired k9 handler.

From everything I have read on this board you pup buttercup has extreme to high drives. Would you or anyone else recommend a pup or dog with that type drive to a first time owner\handler. Wouldn't you worry that a pup with that high of drive be too much for an inexperience handler. So what dog would you recommend a new handler wanting to train a service dog that can protect. pug or JRT? lol

it would be nice to say that we, as a group, could change the GSD as a breed, eliminating some of the ridiculous things that have emerged throughout the years of irresoponsible breeding by so many in the US and even overseas. we could eliminate health defects, low drives of all types, increase overall workability, correct working structure, and atheleticism of of all pups being born if we had more control over breeding. but lets face it, its not going to happen. so whats left is a lot of pups, dogs and bitches without optimal characteristics. the most important thing is that you spend time trying to overcome some of these problems with good training, good advice from places like these, and reliable products like ed's videos and equipment. at the same time we would be idiots to not own a dog that we could learn more from through fixing 'problems'. i think that most of us would be lying if we said that our first GSD wasnt necessarily exactly what we would have liked in every phase, they each have areas that they struggle some in. there are going to be novice handlers with GSD's and there are going to be dogs that have problems, in my opinion, the novice handlers like me will appreciate a great dog later if they work through some problems and quirks of a GSD that wouldnt necessarily be considered ideal for every phase, but the trade off is we learn alot about ourselves as a handler and the different kind of dogs in general.

Just for your information, filing down the canine teeth on herding dogs is NOT a widespread practice.

Yes, I did know that Robert. The young man I spoke to In Germany about 15 years ago explain " they file the teeth of the stronger dogs to keep them from latching on and killing or severely injuring a problem sheep." He showed me his dogs canines and they were really rounded off not filed down. I didn't go into detail with answering Alan's post because it was a little off subject. But, a valid question since fewer of GSD are doing the herding work their name implies.

I have often wondered why, on the typical Eukanuba or Kruft's
dog show on Animal Planet there is hardly ever even a GSD in the mix? Not even represented, let alone best of group, possibly able to make best of show finals? Have the show lines deteriorated so they simply aren't bothering to show?
Wouldn't this lack of representation indicate a thourough decline?

As for filing of teeth, that's very risky to that tooth's health, long term. Dentists can do a tip amputation, and a pulp cap (filling)if there's a medical need, like an extreme
overbite, where bottom jaw is so short and narrow the canines are poking holes in palatte...but that is a very expensive procedure.

My understanding was they were put under by the vet and their canine teeth were gently filed down to be dull. He's English was better than my German so something might have been lost in translation.

I think there may be a different understanding in terminology when Tracy says..

 Quote:

No where have I said you or anyone should weaken the breed. I have simply said breeders do not have to bred extreme dogs. When I hear the word extreme it means a unsafe dog (handler aggressive) short fuses. If, you are going to bred extreme dogs you will have to sooner or later have to throw in the mix, a dog to take off rough edges. Even experienced handlers will not work with unstable dogs they can't trust.

When I first heard the word extreme to describe some working dogs I'd think immediately these dogs are pyscho, LOL...I guess it is just used to describe a really awesome working dog differnt to the norm these days..

Does not mean they are unstable ??????? rather the oppostie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ?.. Where does it say in the standard that the german shepherd as a top working dog is supposed to be dangerous and unstable in the right hands, and a menace to children and anything not a threat ??

As far as I know handler aggression is not a desired trait, but in the right hands the dog can often be fixed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

It may have been on Lou Castle's website, though please correct me if I'm wrong, but it was said that often a dog with mega fight drive may have some some dominance/rank issues..so these would be extreme dogs I guess ?

Though I'm sure you can have a 'extreme' gsd that has no handler aggression issues and is good with kids...

** Just a note,perhaps we should be acreful with some of the terminology used, not being a party pooper guys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> but to newbies like me, and showies who come to read up on leerburg.. They may be under the misunderstanding that a 'extreme" dog is really an unstable dog..and to see everyone applauding that.. well you get the drift <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am just tired of explaining to people the benefits of schutzhund ( not supported in australia at all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> and that our breed club insisting that it is a sport for vicious dogs ect ect..and that working line breeders want this sort of dog..and all the Bsl

am rambling <LOL> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, just remember the gsd is a Jack of all trades,and a stable, superb working dog in responsible hands.. we should be promoting this at every oppurtunity. with all the Breed specific Legislation worldwide. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

cheers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Katie,

I have a GSD that; when he gets very defensive towards a stranger while he's on a leash, he will nip at my shins. He doen't every hurt me, or rip clothes, draw blood. Is this what is termed "handler aggression"?
In my case, I don't view this as aggressive. Annoying, yes. Undesired, yes. But in realative terms, I don't consider this aggressive. I don't know for sure though. I'm sure there are people here that would consider any kind of mouth on the handler "aggressive".
I don't know the answer, so could someone tell me a) what is handler aggression? and b) is this what I'm experiencing?

Michael, the dog is NOT handler aggressive. What is happening (based on what little you've said...can never say what it is for sure without actually witnessing it in person) is the dog doesn't have the nerve strength to cap its drive/worry and is looking for a way to unload some of its frustration. It will continue to do so unless you stop this behaviour, but be prepared, it may be replaced by another behaviour that could be more or less desireable.