Quote:

These are not powerful dogs. And one of the posters said something about fight drive. I don't think that a dog at a world competition is going to have that kind of thing going.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> sorry Jeff but IMO you are dead wrong.

I have never seen a middle drive dog, or a dog that does well with sport that has this. I have worked many dogs that appear strong that while they don't melt, they certainly show weakness. If they truely had this fight drive, they wouldn't put up with that helpers crap. They would have bitten him in the chest, upper arm, whatevers closest. Dogs that are that strong play the game the way they want and are not deterred by silly stuff like sleeve presentation, sticks waving about. If you really think that high scoring dogs have all this incredible drive just look at the U.S. All these podium dogs are being bred to, yet we still have to go elsewhere to get dogs. Look at the numbers and tell me I am wrong. How many of these podium dogs that are bred produce really well? Then look at Schutzhund itself, it has gone downhill to the point where it is hard to take the titles seriously. Or even better put on a soft sleeve and test the bite of some of these dogs. It is not hard to grip the sleeve used in Schuthund, I doubt that overall you will not be awestruck when you test them this way. Don't get me wrong this is only one test. But if what you say was true, I wouldn't be able to catch them with these sleeves.

I agree with Jeff on this. I only train for French Ring, but from what I gather from folks in my club who have been around a long time, you don't see dogs with real moxy competing at championships. A 'tough' dog simply won't out that cleanly (if at all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> and if a sleeve is offered incorrectly they're gonna nail the guy anywhere that's available. (which from my understanding this doesn't get you very far in sch. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My .02

Grant

In the video he clearly Kneed the dog on purpose. I personally like that, but to my knowledge thats not allowed in schutzhund from the helper. He IMO was purposely keeping the dog away from the sleeve, and as the dog was getting close to getting it, he pulled the sleeve back while Kneeing the dog, when that worked he stopped to end the exercise. All he kept giving the dog to bite was the hard end of the sleeve, and IMO was hitting the dog in the mouth with it. I'd say that was one dirty Mo Fracky. Though I was very suprised that the dog didn't try to get a bite elsewhere and make him pay with all that going on.

i am a believer that a dog that is high in drives will make success for himself (they are more selfish) however if success for that particular dog lies only in the sleeve, the dog only knows to interact with the sleeve, the dog, no matter how high the fight drive may only know to interact with the decoy through the sleeve, especially if its only seen reward from interacting with the helper in this manner. i also believe that compulsion can be used on a dog that is in high level of drive to keep them from being dirty in most cases. they should fight through whatever is in their way to get the sleeve, a schh dog should never get the "man" under a reasonably high amount of pressure no matter how high the dogs fight drive is. classical conditioning and proofing during training should prevent this naturally. im not saying i wouldnt want my dog to nail the guy, just saying you would score better if he didnt.
and we all know that any dog that wins high level competetions isnt nessecarily the best dog to breed to. ed and others agree that you must breed to very extreme dogs to get the high level competetive dogs. that is why ed has been so successful with his breeding program, that is why itor op de hyde has been a great dog for his program, he was never on the podium in the BSP but he was a great, hard, and tough dog.

old topic, but the previously posted link never opened due to an error. This is the first time I see the video clip & I do believe the helper intentionally screwed this dog. What happens to a world class helper that performs blatantly inconsistent in a world trial? Discuss

Right click then selct "save as"
http://www.thekiewelworkingdogs.com/AikaDjangoAbwehrk.mpeg

Could money be involved?

yeah, i never got involved in this thread, but from what i read, it splintered into two discussions and the two got lumped together and muddied.

#1) this was a competition and the discussion of fair play by the decoy

#2) if this was a hard, real dog, it would have made the helper pay. this also led to the age old argument that high level sport dogs are useless for PPD, PSD type stuff...

my feeling is that those two points are distinctly different and should be discussed in different threads. this was a sport competition with sport dogs. competitions should be fair. the helper obviously messed up. whether or not it was on purpose who knows. schH isn't really meant to test a dogs nerves anymore (not like the ring sports or KNPV), it's just a routine and it should be the same routine for all the dogs.

Cannot hold nor judge the FMBB IPO World Championships for the next 5 years...

I've had several individuals from Europe confirm this...and an official statement was issued by the FMBB to all its member countries...
________________________________________________

News from the belgian world organization


> Finally the World organization came to a desision on what type of
> sanctions to implement against the german malinois club in regards
to the world championship in Aue ( Germany) in 2005.

> there will be no German judges judging the world championships for
5 years (2006,7,8,9,2010) The German Malinois club will not be
allowed to host the world championships for five years as well.The
world organization also promisses that what happened in Aue during
protection to some of the dogs/competitors will not happen again and
that the DMC was in several violations with the international FCI
regulation book.


> This decision of course was based on quite a few problems with the
inconsistency and bias of the helpers. the desision came on Feb 14th
2006 from the board of directors of FMBB

That is very good news.
They should also bar the helper from ever working a trial again and pull the judges license to judge.

Doug