Drive -

Something that is inate in the dog. It can not be exstinguished, always there wether a little drive or a lot of drive.

For me there are only three drives- Prey, Defense and Social. All others come from these three.

D

Steve Cobb wrote: "so is biting, so is running, so is chasing, so jumping, etc. The dog "learned" how to do all those things along the way"

Hey Mr. Hoadley, did you have to put your puppies feet, one in front of the other until he learned how to run? Did you open his mouth and place his prey inside until he learned how to bite?

You guys are just grasping for straws. These statements are getting dumber and dumber."


If you don't think that dogs learn how to walk, bite, run, jump, or bark you have never seen a litter of puppies. The dog does have to learn the mechanics of how to do them. They don't just automatically get up and start running around. They learn very carefully how to do even these basic things.


The definition of drive- the base force that motivates the dog to action. No matter what the dog is doing, there is a base motivation. So when looking at the work, there is always a base drive that is motivating the dog to action. . .whatever that action is. Barking, biting, running, whatever.


Unless Steve has invented his own definition of prey drive to describe it as few ACTIONS rather than a base motivator. . .

Getting back to the bark and hold, this is the whole reason we don't want to see the dog going yip yip yip, because the dog is working in prey drive. . .for prey item, not to fight the man.

The definition of drive- the base force that motivates the dog to action. No matter what the dog is doing, there is a base motivation. So when looking at the work, there is always a base drive that is motivating the dog to action. . .whatever that action is. Barking, biting, running, whatever.

Unless Steve has invented his own definition of prey drive to describe it as few ACTIONS rather than a base motivator. . .

VanCamp, this is easy. Prey runs away, hides, sneaks, and makes sudden movements. It tries to avoid confrontation. When it is cornered it may go into avoidence behaviors, allowing just enough time for the escape. This drive can be enhanced or diminished.

Steve Cobb

Steve says that dogs dont bark in prey and usually explains it away as frustration.By saying something like if the dog is back tied and barks at the prey item it is just frustrated.Randall says if he feeds his dog live prey and holds them back they are frustrated and they bark.My question to Randall is if you just go out there and hold your dogs by the collar and there is no prey present do they bark? NO! Why? Because there is no drive nmotivating them to bark.So simply holding them by the collar doesnt frustrate them and drive them to bark. They must be in drive first and frustrated second.So a dog cant be frustrated if there is no drive present.Unless your gonna tell me that frustration is a drive.To try and keep saying that a dog cant be in drive and perform and action that leads to success at the same time makes no sense. A dog can be in prey drive, frustrated, and perform an an action all at once.

Nice post David.

Steve you said, "Prey runs away, hides, sneaks, and makes sudden movements. It tries to avoid confrontation. When it is cornered it may go into avoidence behaviors, allowing just enough time for the escape. This drive can be enhanced or diminished."


When prey is cornered it may go into survival behaviors (i.e. FIGHT because there is no more option of flight). . . .but other than that minor terminology point I agree with everything you just said. That is just about exactly what prey does.


What does that have to do with the discussion of whether or not a dog is motivated by his prey drive to bark when the occasion arises?

Lee, thank you.

I think that says it all right there.


Richard made a good point in another thread where there was a similar terminology misunderstanding.

You have to accept the basic terminology the dog training community uses, otherwise every thread is going to be a stupid fight about the definition of a previously defined, and pretty goddamn clear, term.

David Morris:

Randall says if he feeds his dog live prey and holds them back they are frustrated and they bark.My question to Randall is if you just go out there and hold your dogs by the collar and there is no prey present do they bark? NO! Why?

First off, I said I can make them bark, not that they would just start barking with no stimulation.

Prey and Defense are a reactive response to a stimulation. Neither in prey nor defense will they bark if there is no stimulation. Even if the prey food is there and I hold the collars they do not bark. I would have to pump them up to frustrate them. And I pumping them up for their food is social, not barking for prey without any stimulation. And you are right, they did learn to bark for their food, just like sitting for their food.

Nobody says a dog can not be frustrated and bark. We just believe there is some social,defense and prey there and all you see is one drive. If that works for you than go with it. For us, we see three drives working together, not just prey.

You believe that barking as a taught behaviour to get its reward can be prey. If its taught to bark to get its food, than I will not call it prey. Besides, never seen wild animals barking at the prey in a log to get it to come out, flush it out or scare it out so it could get it. Our demosticated animals might, but that does not constitute it as prey. Take away what is taught and just look at the drives. Then maybe you can see the whole picture and not the results of what is taught.

And VanCamp, there is no misunderstanding of the terminology of drives, we look at it from other perspectives and you see prey. That is ok, but never be afraid to step back and take another look at a situation and see it from all perspectives. We learn from the beginners as much as we learn from the advanced.

And repeating definitions does not constitute understanding terms. I could have used Risers definition but that would have been cheating.

three cents

If the dog is in prey-lock he does't bark. The dog does bark for frustration reasons and that frustration involves prey drive as a component.

David Morris: They must be in drive first and frustrated second. This is true, the frustration is eternalized conflict.

One other thing...

In order for a dog to bite he must close his mouth first. It is a species-specific behavior. So the dog must close its mouth just before it bites. In prey lock the dog feels the certainty of his ability to catch the prey and so is silent in preparation.

It is more complicated then just that but best to keep it easy.


Originally posted by Randall Hoadley:
We learn from the beginners as much as we learn from the advanced.

Who is advanced?