 Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: alice oliver ]
#111932 - 08/31/2006 10:09 AM |
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does the leerburg vaccination protocol follow the recommendations of jean dodds?
One of the premier vets on vaccinosis in this country is Dr. Jean Dodds.
To Contact Dr. Jean Dodds:
Home Office: (Mon/Tues/Fri)
Phone 310/ 828-4804 --Pacific Time
Fax: 310/ 828-8251
938 Stanford St.
Santa Monica, CA 90403 USA
Hemopet Office: (Wed/Thurs)
Phone: 714-891-2022 --Pacific Time
Fax: 714-891-2123
11330 Markon Dr
Garden Grove, CA 92841 USA
Dr Jean Dodds: "This schedule is the one I recommend and should NOT be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It's a matter of professional judgement and choice." For breeds or families of dogs susceptible to or effected with immune dysfunction, immune-mediated disease, immune-reactions associated with vaccinations, or autoimmune endocrine disease (e.g., thyroiditis, Addison's or Cushing's disease, diabetes, etc.), the following protocol is recommended:
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Age of Pups / Vaccine Type
MLV=modified-live virus
9 weeks MLV Distemper/Parvovirus only (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy)
12 weeks MLV Distemper/Parvovirus only (e.g. Intervet Progard Puppy)
24 weeks or older , if allowable by law Killed Rabies Vaccine
After 1 year, annually measure serum antibody titers against specific canine infectious agents such as distemper and parvovirus. This is especially recommended for animals previously experiencing adverse vaccine reactions or breeds at higher risk for such reactions (e.g., Weimaraner, Akita, American Eskimo, Great Dane). Another alternative to booster vaccinations is homeopathic nosodes. This option is considered an unconventional treatment that has not been scientifically proven to be efficacious. One controlled parvovirus nosode study did not adequately protect puppies under challenged conditions. However, data from Europe and clinical experience in North America support its use. If veterinarians choose to use homeopathic nosodes, their clients should be provided with an appropriate disclamer and written informed consent should be obtained.
I use only killed 3 year rabies vaccine for adults. In some states, they may be able to give titer test result in lieu of booster.
I do NOT use Bordetella, corona virus, leptospirosis or Lyme vaccines unless these diseases are endemic in the local area pr specific kennel. Futhermore, the currently licensed leptospira bacterins do not contain the serovars causing the majority of clinical leptospirosis today.
Do NOT recommend vaccinating bitches during estrus, pregnancy or lactation. Do not vaccinate during times of stress such as: surgery, travel, illness or infection.
http://leerburg.com/vaccinosis.htm
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i wish someone would fund the research for this....
The big research money is in the hands of the manufacturers, whether we talk about commercial pet foods or pharmaceutical houses.
unfortunately, this is a serious problem in virtually all scientific research today, not just pharmaceuticals. good reporters know that when a new scientific discovery or paper is released, you always check to see who funded it. there is almost always a special interest in the background. as they say, "follow the money."
It would be nice if a wealthy eccentric died and instead of leaving all their money to fluffy, would leave it to a school for research. Then they wouldn't have to worry about the findings because the money was theirs free and clear.
I dont know a lot about this subject, however most of the best vets I have used have come across as somewhat arrogant, blunt, and unfriendly people. Once I got to know them I realised that they were actually great people. If he's a great vet I could handle rude.
Incidently some of the nicest vets I've met have been absolutely useless at their job....
This is a good point Ben and one I've seen also...
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: Barbara Erdman ]
#111933 - 08/31/2006 10:57 AM |
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this is not about friendliness or bedside manner. this is about not being able to get my questions answered unless i drive two hours and pay $75. and these are not questions that are dependent on him seeing the dog. they are basic questions about procedures and protocols. they are questions that every other vet i have spoken to was willing to freely give me over the phone. even the top surgeon at CSU was willing to speak to me freely, without requring me to be in his office or pay him a fee.
i explained to this vet (via email) that his vet tech and other staff answered questions inaccurately and inconsistently, and that i need to consult with him directly so that i could be clear about the answers, but, no dice.
what i got from the vet tech was basically a sales pitch on how great the vet is and i should just trust him and not ask so many questions. the whole attitude there is, if you were referred to us, then just trust that we know what we are doing. if you have to ask any questions, then you don't trust us and we don't want to deal with you.
there are probably plenty of pet owners who would be happy to submit to such terms and be grateful for the privilege. i'm not one of them. for me to feel enough trust to let someone operate on my dog, i need my questions answered.
but on top of that, the communications i did have with that vet and office were questionable as far as accuracy, and as far as what they revealed about their rigidity and unwillingness to respond to the individuality of dogs and situations.
i wanted to explore further to find out if those initial impressions were correct. since i can't find out without putting myself in an untenable situation (i don't have two days to waste and extra money to spend, only to find out this is a bad fit--something i already strongly suspect.), i will have to walk away from this vet.
not only does the vet have to be the right one for my dog, he has to be someone i feel i can trust, and if i can't get comfortable, he isn't right for my dog, either.
in the end, terrible things can happen with even the best vet, and if that happened, it would be very tough for me emotionally if all my instincts had been telling me to stay away from this vet.
not to mention, there was still no guarantee he'd answer my questions even in person. they'd refused to itemize the charges over the phone, or in an email, even after i explained why i needed them itemized, so why suddenly would they do it in person?
working Mastiff |
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: BenGeurts ]
#111934 - 08/31/2006 11:10 AM |
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I dont know a lot about this subject, however most of the best vets I have used have come across as somewhat arrogant, blunt, and unfriendly people. Once I got to know them I realised that they were actually great people. If he's a great vet I could handle rude.
Incidently some of the nicest vets I've met have been absolutely useless at their job....
I sure do agree with that.
This thread, though, wasn't about "rude" at all. Way beyond rude and into refusal to reply and varying replies.
Editing to say sorry, I hadn't seen the last reply from the O.P. (taking too long to get back to my message)....... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
I'm with the O.P. I'm not a nonentity with no right to discussion or information..... with a vet or, for that matter, an M.D.
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: alice oliver ]
#111935 - 08/31/2006 11:16 AM |
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i thought of an analgous situation in human medicine. about 26 years ago, i blew out my knee while working in an office, and the case was referred to worker's compensation.
i got a referral to one of the very top orthopedic surgeons in new york city, who was affiliated with a prestigious hospital, and whose colleagues were at the top people in the field.
the guy was a callous a******e. he told me that since i was over 30, i didn't really need my knee anymore, and a bunch of other carp. very insensitive. he also only agreed to do the surgery if i paid him in advance, in cash, and he would pay me back when worker's comp reimbursed him. i borrowed the money from a friend.
well, he was a brilliant surgeon and did a beautiful job on my knee. really, he was an artist and deserved his well placed position, as a surgeon.
but then, i found out he never filed a claim with worker's comp, and denied ever having received cash from me. lucky for me, i'd had his office secretary write up a letter on his letterhead stating i'd paid the cash and that he'd reimburse me after he got reimbursed. i sent the letter to the state attorney general, and they nailed him.
the state attorney told me this doctor sat on the worker's comp board! he'd never filed the claim!
then i wrote a letter to the director of the hospital and cc:ed it to all his colleagues. they threw the guy out. he'd not only breached professional ethics, but he'd broken the law.
now, did he do a beautiful job on my knee? yes. did i get the physical benefit of that? yes. and would i have been better off going to a different surgeon? absolutely.
the next time i needed knee surgery, i went to a doc who not only accepted my worker's comp, but waited three years to get paid, without a word of complaint. he was just as good a surgeon. maybe better, because he is also a compassionate human being.
so, when i get bad vibes about people, there is usually a good reason, and i listen. and there are always professionals out there who are also good human beings. you just have to look a little further. being a good vet and a good human are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: alice oliver ]
#111936 - 08/31/2006 12:51 PM |
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I didn't mean to imply that you're decision wasn't the best one, not at all. Always trust your gut feeling.
That's a terrible story <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> My 17 year old cousin had an incident where she was hospitalized. None of the doctors could figure out what was wrong with her, until one specialist came in. The thing was he was from the Middle East somewhere and refused to talk to woman (LOL). He would explain everything if my uncle was there, but if it was just my aunt alone, he would be really rude and blow her off, and she was the one with all the questions. She took her complaints to the PR dept. where they said there had been tons of them about that particular doctor. He knew his stuff, but his bedside manner with women left much to be desired.
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: alice oliver ]
#111937 - 08/31/2006 02:39 PM |
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Reg: 11-16-2005
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Loc: Utah, U.S.
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It is crucial to acknowledge and act on the red flags you get from people and situations. We get red flags for a reason. So go with your vibes. This is not a rare operation is it?? Is it not done pretty commonly? The guy and his staff sound like JERKS.
Playing the devils advocate, I guess I could possibly handle not having an itemized bill in advance and a locked in charge, only because of unforseen circumstances that might require additional procedures and charges. But, for the basic, no complication surgery they should know the charges going in. What I could not/would not tolerate is a medical practitioner in any field, refusing to answer questions in advance about the procedure itself. Remember--what these folks are doing is "practicing medicine"...and what they learned on was already dead.
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: Ruth Counter ]
#111938 - 08/31/2006 03:06 PM |
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i, too, could accept a blanket estimate, ruth. the problem was that since they wouldn't itemize, i could not tell if the amount they quoted was a floor or a ceiling. for example, did it include bloodwork? that was already done by my own vet. did it include extra supervision during hospitalization? if not, how much more would that be?
when someone else who went to him tells me she spent $700 just on diagnostic tests and no surgery was involved, that was another red flag. i did not want to wind up in a situation where they act as if they have a blank check. if i know the specifics of the charges, i can make a reasonable guess as to whether the charges might go up significantly. at least then i am prepared.
the surgery is a relatively new procedure that not many people do. this vet is the only one in my state that i am aware of who has the training and equipment to do it.
however, i can go to a vet school teaching hospital, four hours away, or to another surgeon 7-8 hours away, and get it done. that will be more travel and expense, but at least i won't be turned into a nervous wreck dealing with these people.
update: the head of small animal surgery at CSU referred me to a board certified surgeon in my region who he thought might help me find a vet. the surgeon graciously returned my calls, even though we had to play phone tag for two days. he evaluated ben's risk very thoroughly over the phone by asking all the right questions, strongly advised i get the procedure done, and had already investigated for me where i could go to a vet he trusts and he told them about me!! what a guy!!! i am sending him a thank you note, and thinking i should even send him a gift.
he also happily answered ALL my questions about the procedure and after care, so i now have a gold standard from which to judge. he feels it should be an outpatient procedure, especially given ben's nervous temperament, and that pain should not be an issue if the surgery is done properly. based on that, the closer vet was not the right choice anyway.
and this guy will never see my dog, and i will not be doing the procedure. how's that for contrast in styles?
now i'm just waiting for a call back from the guy he referred me to. keeping my fingers crossed that this will be "the one."
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: alice oliver ]
#111939 - 08/31/2006 03:26 PM |
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..... he feels it should be an outpatient procedure, especially given ben's nervous temperament, ......
..... which answers the initial question, at least, about requiring (with no exceptions discussed) an overnight unsupervised post-op stay.
That requirement, supposedly based on containment issues but with no night supervision, was the very first of the red flags.
I can't think of any way to convince me that certain dogs wouldn't be better off with their owner's supervision at home post-surgery than in a kennel with no one in attendance overnight.
The whole thing at least made sense if he insisted that his personnel were better than the owner at supervising the first post-op night; I might prefer that I attend, but I couldn't argue that his personnel were better equipped to deal with an unforeseen post-op situation.
..... But to insist (essentially) that his unattended kennel was safer than the owner's home with the owner present.......
Then it went even more downhill from there. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: alice oliver ]
#111940 - 08/31/2006 03:52 PM |
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"the surgeon graciously returned my calls, even though we had to play phone tag for two days. he evaluated ben's risk very thoroughly over the phone by asking all the right questions,"
I'm with you on sending a gift. This man sounds like gold.
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Re: what do you think of this vet's post-op protoc
[Re: Ruth Counter ]
#111941 - 08/31/2006 10:39 PM |
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