eh, i understand. if you've been hit by a paintball, especially one that's hot, i can see where you could think it was cruel. i think my initial measure of the velocity was very high, the temperature dropped the day after when i started using it... but anyway, ruby (the dog without the ruined nerves) just "jumped" and turned around to sniff her butt.

destiny's reaction was a bit over the top, but like i said i wholeheartedly expect that same response the first few times i use the e-collar. guess i'll "update" while i'm here: i'm still trying to keep corrections of any kind to a minimum and keep everything positive. so far it's working, but she's still very into the prey drive.

yesterday evening she was acting like an idiot at the back door over a cat in the back yard, so i put her back on the long line. i was glad i did, because she took off.. i told her "no" right before she reached the end of the line, then held it tight so she self-corrected when she hit the end of it. she'll recall immediately as soon as she quits the chase, but during a chase she'll just keep going.. guess it's back to the long line, and more treats

both dogs' response is getting quite quick with the treats, i just need to figure out how to get destiny to pay attention during a chase.

This reminds me of a dog I had about 15 years ago before so much information was available. The dog would just bolt everytime we went outside. I had only the William Kohler book. Kohler recommended the slingshot method. Sure enough after just one shot with the sling shot on his hindquarters at 30 yards he returned to me and NEVER refused to respond to recall again.

Just to point out one thing I believe no one touched upon, it's hard to be subtle with a paintball gun. Having a friend who's really into paintballing, I know that you can't hide a paintball gun on your person like you can a e-collar remote. If your dog is clever, he or she will quickly figure out that you can't give these wonderous corrections without the big honking black thing in your hands. Of course, the dog's going to be trying to figure out exactly what the corrections were for in the first place, because I think it probably takes longer to pick up the gun, aim, and shoot than it does to press a button on a remote. (Otherwise, we'd all "shoot" at instead of "click" at our TV sets!)

Now for a completely unrelated note, if you want a recipe for an easy-to-make, super smelly, pocket-friendly (not greasy) tuna bread for dog training, send me a PM and I'll give it to you. My dog goes ape for it.

katherine: you are 100% correct in that the dogs can pick up whether i'm carrying it or not, which is why i found it better to have my wife doing the commands inside (for things like garbage etc), and having me watching them with it. i'm no longer using it (out of gas, for one reason, going in a different "direction" being the other), but it worked quite well that way... one time i was in another room firing through a door that was open a mere six inches. my theory was they wouldn't be looking for a handler with a paintgun, but would have to look everywhere for anyone with one.

i know this is bad form in that you generally want the dog to know the correction came from you, but it reinforced that the "no" command meant "quit whatever you're doing, or it's going to suck!", regardless of whether the handler was in the position to correct.

as for being quick enough, when i was working with it i had the paintgun shouldered at all times, and i am 100% confident that every shot was on the back/side within 1.5 seconds of when it needed to be there.

i believe that (like chris said about slingshots) you can get results with a paintgun, but you have to be really careful with it, it's unwieldy, inconvenient, and takes quite a bit of skill before you could even think about pointing it at your dog (for reasons of eyes, nose, ears, and buttholes). it worked for me, while it lasted, but i don't think it's a viable option for most people. there's no aiming with an e-collar!

Thankfully now a days we have the e-collar for problems like these.

I read your posts, and I am completely lost for appropriate words.

You're using a correction method that can cause permanent, dehabilitating injuries to your dog.

I hope that your marker, dog, and whatever other responsibilities somebody was dense enough to bestow upon you are revoked.

Aside from having you removed from the board, I hope that you get bunkered and repeatedly "marked" in the genital reigon (a best case scenario for the dog). Perhaps this... painful illustration will cause you to reflect back upon what you risk inflicting on your dogs.

Kevin, he already said he stopped using it & is now using other methods.

Kevin, did you read the whole thread? HE'S NOT USING IT ANYMORE. Plus, FWIW, he WAS trying to be as careful as possible in his use of it, regardless of your personal feelings on the subject.

Is this really what you want your first post here to convey?

He's just highly just opinionated like my wife!!!

That slingshot method thing of mine was years ago and nowadays I am personally almost afraid of corrections that will take the fight out of my dog or possibly injure him.

Thank God for all the great information so readily available now.