Quote: Yuko Blum

Actually, those German show dogs in the pictures I linked to are all pure German showline - none of them have been mixed with American lines.

Were these dogs bred in the US with German lines, or were they bred in Germany? The reason I ask is because I thought that the German-bred (not just the lines) didn't really have the roached backs because it isn't something that's considered important there, even for the showline.

I am not, by any means, an expert on this so please speak up if anyone knows more about this. This is just what I have heard and read. I'd love to be set straight so I don't (continue to) sound like an idiot!

No clue!

Sorry I can't be more helpful, I'm no expert either. I'm just posting what I see.

As I said, I did watch the sieger show footages that Ed put up on the Leerburg site (the competitions were back in the 80's, I believe, in Germany, so definitely no American influences in the dogs on those videos). I definitely noticed the weird roach in those German dogs.

They're not all as badly deformed. Some of the German showline dogs look nice with normal toplines and spines, just like some of the American show dogs look nice enough, without the messed up angulations in the back.

For some reason though, the more "normal" looking dogs just don't seem to do as well in the show ring. The judges seem to delight in picking the extremes for some reason (maybe this wasn't always the case, but it certainly seems that way nowadays).

Again, this is just from my personal observations as an outsider to the show ring

Maybe there's more to it... I'd also love to find out more about this, so I second Amber's request that an expert speak up on the topic :-)

 Quote: saffron k. hall

Well this clears things up about my rescue too....he definitely has a roached back.....hence the description of him as something out of a Tim Buton movie......'sigh' well he is at least a sweetheart and I'd rather have him living here than put down for getting frustrated by life in the shelter. :-)

Oh so that's what you meant! Lol, I enjoyed the analogy

Your dog sounds like a sweetheart from what you've described so far. Good for you for rescuing him!

I have nothing against the "deformed" show dogs themselves; just the breeders who breed these deformities into them.
I've seen a few of these show dogs around where I live, and for the most part they're all sweet dogs and very nice pets.
I just feel sorry for them because they have so much trouble moving around in everyday life and are in pretty bad shape... just walking around the block seems like such an effort for them, most of them have bad skeletal and joint issues (from the extreme angulations) and they have terrible endurance problems.
The owners all love their dogs regardless of course, but usually after spending thousands on vet bills for surgeries and treatments for their dogs, they start to see the "evil" in show breeders.

I feel bad for these people because the breeders they bought from are usually highly recommended by the AKC (or CKC - Canadian kennel club) and they paid good money for these dogs.
The funny (or sad) thing is that the backyard bred shepherds, who haven't had a history in the show ring, are usually much healthier and more sound than these top-winning show dogs.

These poor owners often consider going for a working line shepherd after their experience with show dogs, but don't have the skill or the time to deal with a working shepherd's temperament.
So in the end they just give up on the breed and move onto something else.

I hate seeing this happen and that's why I have an issue with breeders who knowingly breed all these extremes into their dogs. I have yet to see a healthy extreme-angulated shepherd that can walk and run comfortably, that's athletic and that has good endurance.
The only thing these dogs are good for is their "flying trot" or side-gait, or whatever it's called. It looks flashy in the show ring, but it's useless and results in a whole lot of un-sound dogs.

Sigh.

Yuko, the german showline dogs are not equally hideous as their american line counterparts. That is just not true. Just so you know, I am well aware of the difference between working & show lines, I have had working line GSD's since 1980. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you need to understand the dog in germany & you need to appreciate the SV system. While many of us enjoy our high drive GSD's, the breed is an all around family farm dog, so there is a valid place for lower drive dogs. I have no love for american show shepherds, & there are a number of bad german show line breeders, but you are way off the mark to lump the majority in together. I only wish we here in america had as much respect for the breed as most of our german counterpart

I forgot to mention there is a growing number of dedicated german showline breeders here in the US working very hard to remain true to the SV system & the breed. These people do not need to be kicked in the teeth by us working line people. If they were just in it for the $$ it would have been easier to stick with the status quo & keep churning out the American Show Shepherds.

 Quote: Saffron K. Hall

Well this clears things up about my rescue too....he definitely has a roached back.....hence the description of him as something out of a Tim Buton movie......'sigh' well he is at least a sweetheart and I'd rather have him living here than put down for getting frustrated by life in the shelter. :-)

Saffron, rescuing and saving a dog is a beautiful and noble thing, and not everyone canor will do it. It doesn't matter what they look like or what breed they are, it's those eyes looking back at you from behind the cage. You did a wonderful thing for a wonderful dog - his back has nothing to do with who he is, his temperament, sweetness, and his loyalty. I like the straight back, but I would never let a different back or angulation on a GSD keep me from saving one of these remarkable dogs. You have a good GSD. Cause in my book, the temperament of a GSD is the MOST important thing. A good temperament is part of who they are supposed to be.

Perfection has nothing to do with being a dog. None are perfect, except to their owners

My Sierra, pic below at 11 yrs old, did not have what it would take to win conformation titles, she may even have had a bit of some breed other than GSD in her (it was hard to tell), she also had a patch of white between her front legs and she was shorter than the standard, her tail was too short, and her eyes were completely round (the most gorgeous eyes) instead of almond shaped, but to ME she was perfect, and a perfectly beautiful little lady. Soft, sweet, calm, flawlessly obedient and well-behaved, and protective. There won't be another like her.

Sandy, I misted up a little when I read about your Sierra. It is obvious how much you loved her. She was perfect, no doubt in my mind. I sure know how you feel. I lost my Zorba 12/15/05, & he was my "once in a lifetime" dog. I felt privileged to have him.

Thanks Susan. We wrap our hearts around these beautiful dogs, and they wrap their hearts around us. When they're gone it leaves such a hole. I miss her so much and felt privileged to have had her too. I'm sorry about your Zorba, it's so hard when they leave us.

Susan, as I said, I'm certainly not an expert on the SV system or even on the AKC or whatever other standards for German shepherds out there.

ALL I did was post photos of these so-called winning representatives of the breed and give my comments on what I saw.

As to whether you find roach backs more appealing than sloping backs, that's personal preference.

I wasn't talking at all about working abilities and drives.
The original poster just wanted a way to identify his dog visually.

Neither of my dogs are high-drive working shepherds, anyway. I got them before I found this site and learned about working lines.
My 11-year-old female is a backyard-bred shepherd (with a straight back), and my 10-month-old pup is from English lines (which are weak working dogs according to Ed - I agree).
He has high prey drive, is excellent in obedience and will work all day for me thanks to all the tracking dogs in his lineage, but he's certainly not from working lines.
Both of them have great nerves, they're a joy to take anywhere and they make excellent pets. I love them more than anything and wouldn't give them up for anything in this world. As Sandy said, they are perfect in my eyes

I think that's besides the point anyway... Susan, can you comment on the roach backs that you see in all these German show dogs? Is that part of the SV system? That's why I posted the pictures, so that they could speak for themselves and we'd have something to look at objectively.
Again, I'm just talking about the physical appearance and structure of the dogs, not working temperament etc.

From my outside opinion as a non-expert, I see the roached backs in the German show dogs and don't find that attractive at all. I then look over to the American show dogs and see the sloping backs with terrible angulations, and again, I find that highly unappealing and ugly.
I then look at the true working lines, and see dogs that are beautifully structured, with no deformities.
They're extremely athletic and powerful dogs and it feels so great to watch them move around because they're not hindered by their bizarre skeletal structure (like show dogs).

That was my comment; if the show (American or SV or whatever breeders are following in their country) criteria for judging and breeding shepherds are somehow producing these weird shapes in the shepherds when the real working dogs have none of this, why is that?

Let's just focus on the structure of the dogs here. Anyone interested in quality working temperament would go to working lines anyway. The show dogs can be considered "family farm dogs" as you said, Susan

 Quote: susan tuck

Yuko, the german showline dogs are not equally hideous as their american line counterparts. That is just not true. Just so you know, I am well aware of the difference between working & show lines, I have had working line GSD's since 1980. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you need to understand the dog in germany & you need to appreciate the SV system. While many of us enjoy our high drive GSD's, the breed is an all around family farm dog, so there is a valid place for lower drive dogs. I have no love for american show shepherds, & there are a number of bad german show line breeders, but you are way off the mark to lump the majority in together. I only wish we here in america had as much respect for the breed as most of our german counterpart

 Quote: susan tuck

I forgot to mention there is a growing number of dedicated german showline breeders here in the US working very hard to remain true to the SV system & the breed. These people do not need to be kicked in the teeth by us working line people. If they were just in it for the $$ it would have been easier to stick with the status quo & keep churning out the American Show Shepherds.

Susan, I admit that I know more about the working lines and the American lines than I do about the German showlines...and I'd like to know more.

I was under the impression, that in Germany anyway, the showline dogs are not bred to have the roach back. Is this true?

I have no desire to bash *any* breeder that is looking to improve the breed they have chosen, working or show. From what I have seen on the internet, though, there do seem to be some American breeders of German line dogs that seem to be gearing them to look more AKC. I don't even think it's the majority of them, but I have seen some that give me pause.

It's my belief that they do this because the average American buyer thinks that the AKC GSD is what they're supposed to look like. BUT they've heard enough to know that the German lines often have better health and temperament. So, it's my belief that *some* breeders are trying a "best of both worlds" approach to appeal to American buyers.

I'd love to get your take on this.