Paul,
Thank you. You explained what I meant by *mechanism*, ie I wanted to know in what way would Catherine get this pup to bite when *appropriate*.
But, I don't think Catherine is going to hear or accept any of what you are telling her anyway, it's not unusual really. We've all had clients like this.

Paul,

I'm not missing the point. I don't want a dog that merely bites a sleeve or suit when it suits them. If I have her competently trained and she won't protect me when the chips are down, is that really a fault in the dog or is that a fault in handler/k9 bond? Seems to me it would be the latter.

Again I'm not 'hearing' because I don't agree. It certainly can't be because I see issues in some of the things I learn.

I'm not speaking of myself here but maybe some of you should listen more to your clients. They might not be as stupid as you think they are - just as you may not be as arrogant as they think you are.

Ok Catherine,

I think I have it again, maybe. You want to only train in real world situations, but where are you going to find agitators willing to take unprotected bites? Whenever I have suggested it to the agitators I know they took a dim view of it. I have yet to see a bad guy with a sleeve on, am I missing something? You are against "sport training", but you only have a passing knowledge about 1 sport. What about the other 5-6 types?

It comes down to this: You can run off with a bunch of half baked ideas and try to train with them. Most of the ideas you have put forward here have been tried by people on this list and been DEMONSTRATED not to work. Or you can go with what has been proven to work as DEMONSTRATED by I would guess well over 200 years of experience by people on this board. Maybe you are right, we may have missed something, but what we do works. It has been repeatedly DEMONSTRATED to work. Feel free to take your chances and screw up some dogs, most of us have done it at one point in time or another (except Vince <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

Go train a couple of dogs and come back and talk to us, it seems to be the only way you will learn anything!!

Catherine,strange as it may seem,I do know what works,after many years of training PSDs,Military Dogs and Executive Protection dogs,you do get a little knowledge along the way as to what works and what does not.

Hello. Sorry to jump into the middle of this thread, but as I have been reading it I have been getting a little confused and I have a couple questions. First, I am fairly new to dog training and am still learning about drives. That being said, I am wondering how one trains a dog to bite without using prey or defense. Is there another way to train a dog to bite AND keep it confident?

Also, I was curious as to what makes a dog bond with a human. Is this pack drive? Or are there other reasons that a dog would bond with a person?

Catherine: you posted that you don't care about the different drives , but then said you should be able to give your dog a leash correction without her 'drive' going down. What drive are you talking about and if you don't care about it, why does it matter if it goes down?

Thanks!

Rain,

I'm wasn't really talking about a particular drive - I'm speaking more of the desire to work with the handler. I only mentioned drive because thats the popular terminology.

What makes a dog bond with a human? I sure don't know, but drives sure don't explain it - its deeper and more magical than that. The depth of that bond depends on the handler.

>that merely bites a sleeve or suit when it >suits them.

Good luck because I don't know of any trainer that would train a dog the way you want- without some prey and some sort of equipment for their own protection. If you find that trainer let me know I'd like to come watch.

Catherine,
What part of California are you in?

I'm in Northern California - a bit north of San Francisco. Looking for some Schutzhund events or clubs to check out (never been to one in this area).

I think that the dog-handler bond has to do with pack drive. It makes sense that in order to assure survival, a dog must form strong bonds with his/her "pack"/handler.....in other words, it's a survival issue at its core.

I think that a lot of people don't want to think of the love that their dog has for them as "simply" a survival instinct, because in their minds, that would lessen its importance and meaning. I disagree with that. It certainly doesn't cheapen the bond I have with my dog.