Lance - I suggest you check your attitude at the door. Your comments reflect a serious lack of experience and certainly a complete lack of understanding of training for police service dogs. Anyone reading this thread needs to take this into consideration. In the future you would be advised to not post to threads on police service dogs.

I don't have patience for sport dog trainers voicing opinions on police service dog training. There are plenty of board on the internet where you can toss out foolish opinions. This board is not one of them.

Ed Frawley

 Quote: david c.frost

I know I quoted my own post, but the last line in the original post just did not make sense. Of course it was meant to read: Training does not always replicate reality.


DFrost

I figured that's what you meant

Also, I asked this question, which thinking better about it, now seems like a question that maybe shouldn't be answered by a cop to a civilian, and also it seems like rather a silly question; if that's the case, my apologies - here was the question: "do you think a PPD should use FB or BH or a combo of both, since a civilian would be the handler? It could take a few minutes for the cops to come. Should a PPD be biting the whole time, or released by the handler?"

I guess each situation would be different, but it would seem, at first glance, that it would be wrong for a civilian to allow his dog to keep biting while waiting for the police. Guess I already know the answer to that question.

Sandy, I don't really know all that much about personal protection dogs. I don't do any private training, primarily because our legal department has said it would be a conflict of interest. My opinion on the answer to your question reflects my law enforcement background. Once a threat is neutralized, force is no longer necessary. The threat of force is always present, but only that force necessary should be used. Beyond that answer, I think you would be best to acquire professional legal advice. I'm not trying to duck your question. It isn't some deep dark secret. In our business the rules themselves are pretty cut and dried. Application is a bit more subjective. Your actions, taken while under duress, will be reviewed by people sitting around, drinking coffee in the comfortable confines of some office.

DFrost

There is the "Reasonable Man" argument for civilians who use force to protect themselves. This gives a civilian a little more lattitude when they are engaged in dangerous situations. The reason why the "Reasonable Man" defense is in play is because the law recognizes that civilians, not being specially trained and who are not the police, can only go by the rules that a reasonable person would do in a similiar situation.

Whether this gives you the right to use more force than cops, I suspect so as I've seen it on a few occasions. How much more force is a case by case basis. Cops are trained to stay in control and they have strict rules when it comes to using force on people. Civilians aren't held to such a high standard.

Don't know if this helps or muddies the water. I suppose it all depends on how good your lawyer is. Still, at least you're still alive to be sued.

Howard

Excellant response Howard.

DFrost

Yes, excellent responses, both of you. Thank you very much. Both responses actually do make the water clearer.

Sandy,
Howard touched on an important doctrine and I'm going to illustrate some of the problems that occur with PPD's that are poorly trained ( and that means most of them ).

You have a PPD to repel a threat. But it's up to the court system to decide when an event shifted from being a threat to becoming an attempt to retreat. I see PPD's getting trained all the time in taking down a fleeing perp - that's a needed exercise with a Police Patrol Canine, but if the perp is fleeing, he's home free with a PPD, or at least he should be.
In other words, if you have a PPD and your opponent is attempting to escape, you have no legal right to send your dog onto the fleeing perp if that perp no longer presents a threat to you. This may seem like no big deal, but it's really bad to face this in a court of law.

And believe me, 98% of PPD trainers have *no* idea about what I'm talking about here....

Will,

It gets even more gray...A citizen has the right to basically effect a "Citizens Arrest". That citizen can also be the victim of a violent crime who survives said crime then switches to an arresting citizen. While cops are held to the "That force which is neccessary to effect an arrest, and no more" rule...citizens are not.

So, how much force can a citizen utilize to effect a "Citizens Arrest?" Good question. At some point in the citizens arrest, if the citizen uses an aggregous amount of force it will then be considered a criminal act perpetrated by the citizen. Each person has to make that call if/when the time comes.

To give you an idea of what I, and the SAO did not consider criminal force by a victim...We recieve a 911 call wherein the victim has caught a 6' 3" 225 lb 16 year old (Who appears to be an adult) burglarizing his automobile late in the night. The victim confronts the perp and the perp advances on the vic threatening to kick his ass. The victim is 5' 10" 160 lb, but unknown to the perp, the vic is a martial arts instructor. When I arrive I find the perp out cold in the vic"s living room.

When the perp advances on the vic, he gets superfooted in the face and chest. I literally could read "Nike" on this kids chest. State attorney says its all good even though the vic is trained because the perp is so much larger and aggressive. Just one example. Every case will be different.

Howard

I should have specifically addressed what Will made note of....sending a PPD on a criminal. Personally, I would not do it as a civilian unless It was a major crime ie: murder, rape, aggravated battery involving great bodily harm or the like. And only then if I were the victim or connected in some way. You still have to worry about getting sued no matter what you do if the dog is involved.

The new law that extends the "Home is your castle" (Castle Doctrine) to your personal space while in public has made things real interesting lately.

Howard

So as not to mislead anyone...it may not be the same in every state regarding citizens arrest. Check your local statutes and guidelines.