Quote: bob scott

I'm going to add my -.02 cents here!
Those that know me know I'm a huge fan of purely positive. I've titled dogs in both AKC and Schutzhund with never having to give a physical correction. I've raised all my dogs from young pups and believe dominance is controlable from the get go with very little physical force. It's a leadership issue, not a power issue!
That being said, if I had ANY issues with aggressive dominance it would be taken care of humanely. That,IMHO, is with the use of a DD collar.

In the past I've messd up dogs with the "normal" choke and have gotten aggressive responses with pinch collars. Even though I haven't use a pinch in a number of years, it's still the best tool out there for those that know how, and decide to use it.

Still, I wouldn't hesitate for a nano second to use the DD collar if needed.

A good answer to the O.P.

A purely positive trainer who has seen the damage from a regular old choke and who also understands completely that a DD collar can be needed.

And of course, everyone is talking about "REALLY NEEDED" ..... not the usual training issues.

I honestly do believe that seeing it used in time (or not available when it was needed) might be the one thing that completely internalizes the logic of the DD collar.

The Dominant/Aggressive Dog video is a very good (safe) way to see and understand its use. http://www.leerburg.com/301.htm

Here's the deal guys and maybe you can clear this up and we can go back to all being friends.

When you put the DD collar on a dog are you using it as a training collar or as an emergency back up? What I mean is do you initiate a situation in which the dog may act aggressively and then use the DD collar similar to adding distractions to a long down and then correcting for breaking or do you have it on the dog 24-7 just in case he acts up(for lack of a better phrase) so you have control over him.

There is nothing you could say here to convince me using it as a training collar is appropriate. That said when safety is an issue then its the handlers job to make sure no one is hurt and I can see where the DD would be effective.

I am using an ordinary Leather collar on Pup Goran and i intend to keep using it to do all his training.
I decided before we had him not to use a DD Collar Choke or Pinch Collar on him at all.It will take i expect a little longer than the use of other collars as an aid, but i will stick with it
I have never used heavy hand tactices with any of the other Dogs we owned, and although we use a Pinch Collar on Fred it is not going that way with the Younger Pup

i have it on as a backup, in case of need. i've only had it for a short period of time and haven't 'used' it yet in terms of hanging. but - i've never handled a dog like teagan before. not even close to anything w/her kind of aggression.

the DD collar makes me feel more secure if she does bite me again or come up the leash at me or a mis-time a prong correction (not that i'm not perfect 100% of the time, but i'm human) and she escalates - i have a tool to handle her that doesn't involve me being hurt. it actually allows me to be more confident in handling her (and since i'm learning to handle a dog like her, never having had that exposure before, i'm getting more and more confident, but it's not an immediate thing).

with my previous question - how would a purely positive trainer work with, and get rid of, animal-aggressive and some handler-aggressive behaviour without corrections?

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

When you put the DD collar on a dog are you using it as a training collar or as an emergency back up?

Emergency back-up.

 Quote:

What I mean is do you initiate a situation in which the dog may act aggressively and then use the DD collar similar to adding distractions to a long down and then correcting for breaking

NO!!!

 Quote:

or do you have it on the dog 24-7 just in case he acts up(for lack of a better phrase) so you have control over him.

YES! Or in case equipment fails (other collars).

 Quote:

There is nothing you could say here to convince me using it as a training collar is appropriate. That said when safety is an issue then its the handlers job to make sure no one is hurt and I can see where the DD would be effective.

Ok.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

with my previous question - how would a purely positive trainer work with, and get rid of, animal-aggressive and some handler-aggressive behaviour without corrections?

That my dear, is a whole nother thread entirely.....eeek

OK let me answer that a little differently.

Imagine you have a client that is a 20 year old girl. She bought a 3 year old Protection Dog. The dog has bitten the girls mother in the hand for coming near his toy while cleaning up. The mother has gone in for 2 hand surgeries and may never have complete use of her hand again. The girl comes to you to help her solve the problem, because she doesnt want to get bit, and she doesnt want her mother to get bit again.

Do you:

A) Try something else and spend 8 weeks hoping its fixing the problem? What happens if it doesn't work? Because the dog never displayed this aggression during training, so how do you know the exercises fixed the problem? Then Week 9, the dog bites the girl and she loses complete use of her hand for the rest of her life.

B) Try and put the dog in a situation where he will act aggressively, and try and use some other method that isn't quite getting through to the dog. Then Week 9, same thing, dog bites the girl, she loses use of her hand permanently.

C) Tell her to rehome the dog/surrender the dog/euthanize the dog.

D) You take the dogs favorite ball away from the dog, then hang him with perfect timing till he passes out, regains consciousness, goes "Oh Crap, well, I guess I shouldn't do that or they'll kill me!", and the problem is gone forever?

Do you really want the responsibility as a trainer to tell your client, who is bringing you a severely dominant and prey-posessive dog, "I can fix your dog motivationally" only for it to backfire and your client to never be able to use their right hand again?

Or do you put the dog through 5 minutes of tough training so he learns it is absolutely 100% unacceptable to bite someone?

Its a judgement call. You better be damn sure the dog is walking away fixed, otherwise it's on you for not doing what was neccesary to fix this dog. What happens if the dog bites the girl? The dog gets put down, whereas option D would have allowed the dog to spent the next 10 years happily with his family.

This is even a mild example of some of the dogs I have come accross. Some extreme dogs would have ended up getting a bullet in the head had the situation not been pre-planned, because the dog doesn't care if you are his owner or not, at that point in time, he just wants to kill you.

Dogs are put down every day for alot less.

Well then we're all on the same page, we just didn't know it.

Ditto on Jenni's post, all of it. And as always, love to hear from Bob as I always learn something from him.

Benjamin, you mentioned reservations with the DD collar when you were asking about choke chains. Several people gave you their opinions on choke chains, and talking about DD collars was nothing more than the natural progression of the thread so don't get upset about that. You did bring it up.

I'd also like to add that hanging the dog isn't always what's necessary. The DD collar is so effective that sometimes just a firm raising of the dog's head with it is enough to calm him down (depending on the dog and the circumstance). See Ed Frawley's article on the DD collar here http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm and scroll down to the section that says "How to Use the Leerburg Dominant Dog Collar".

Also Ben asked:

 Quote: benjamin colbert

"When you put the DD collar on a dog are you using it as a training collar or as an emergency back up? What I mean is do you initiate a situation in which the dog may act aggressively and then use the DD collar similar to adding distractions to a long down and then correcting for breaking or do you have it on the dog 24-7 just in case he acts up(for lack of a better phrase) so you have control over him.

There is nothing you could say here to convince me using it as a training collar is appropriate. That said when safety is an issue then its the handlers job to make sure no one is hurt and I can see where the DD would be effective."

No one is saying that the DD collar is to be used as a training collar. It should not and is only for emergencies. I personally would never create a situation where my dog would act aggressively toward me so that I could correct him. However, with some dogs that may be necessary, it depends on how "far gone" the dog is, I suppose.

Mike,

I still don't agree with using the DD as a corrective training collar. I just don't. How have people rehabbed dogs with out them? Its possible but it takes more work and time and I'm ok with that.