Quote: jennifer n. hack

At least with treat and click method anyone can use it and its harmless, requires no skill and easy to learn.

Requires no skill? LOL Wrong.

The people that diss marker training are typically the people who have the least understanding of the method.

Any of you folks who were at our latest Michael Ellis seminar remember his words (and he is someone who is very skilled in marker (or click/treat) training)..." marker training takes a moment to learn and a lifetime to master"

Jennifer, if you REALLY understood training concepts you would realize that no method done correctly requires "no skill" . You insult trainers everywhere when you make statements like that.

Jennifer said;
"I can teach a dog to heel in 20 mins!"

You can "control" a dog in 20 mins! That's a huge difference from a dog that has been taught the behaviour.
Think about it! Why would a dog NOT learn if it gets a great reward, as opposed to a dog that obeys in order to avoid correction?

Jennifer also said:
"Requires no skill and is easy to learn".

That being the case then why isn't everyone doing it?
I'm on my second marker trained/all motivational dog and believe me, after 50 yrs of compulsion training it hasn't been easy but I !!!love!!! the results.

Cindy said;
"Marker training takes a moment to learn and a lifetime to master!"

Being just shy of 63 then I'm in deep $#!+. LOL!

You people and your crutches. Leashes, collars, treats, anthropomorphized "praise"...c'mon.

Me? I prefer ye olde school methods. This goes back when man and dog were in true spiritual harmony. I bite, growl, and lick my dog's junk.

That way he TRULY knows corrections and praise are coming from me.

Yeah, but Steve you gotta remember, we just train pet & sport stuff. Nothing real or spiritual or respectful of the dog's totem spirit.

Not everyone has the benefit of working their dogs in Death Ring, ya know..............

 Quote:

I can teach a dog to heel in 20 minutes, using a prong collar- I am not going to take weeks upon weeks to do treat training to get leash manners. I don't see any benefit to doing that, and my clients do not have weeks to spend on teaching heel.

I can teach a dog to do a focused heel and a flip finish in 20 minutes without the dog even wearing a collar. So what?

 Quote:

Compulsion training takes a lot of skill, even more so than most other methods when done correctly. You have to be able to READ dogs and change your technique for each dog individually.

Funny, every compulsion trainer I've met says that same thing and they all train the same basic way.... there's only so many different things you can do with a prong.

 Quote:

Whatever. Don't down MY methods, when you haven't even seen me train a dog.

YOUR methods??? What makes you so unique? I have watched enough trainers work that I know exactly how you train your dogs and I never even have to see you work. Why? Because there really ain't all that many ways to train a dog using a prong collar. Nobody came up with a special new method, it all comes down to the same basic concepts.

 Quote:

At least with treat and click method anyone can use it and its harmless, requires no skill and easy to learn.

Spoken truly as someone that has never taken the time to actually train a dog motivationally. Or perhaps you tried, failed, and thus are convinced that your way is better? I mean, if it takes you weeks to train the dog to heel motivationally, that's saying something, right...

If a dog is so easy to train that you could do it on a flat collar then you should be able to do it with NO collar. Especially a biddable Malinois.

Bob said it well, there is control and there is training.

 Quote: cindy easton rhodes

 Quote: jennifer n. hack

At least with treat and click method anyone can use it and its harmless, requires no skill and easy to learn.

Requires no skill? LOL Wrong.

The people that diss marker training are typically the people who have the least understanding of the method.

Jennifer, if you REALLY understood training concepts you would realize that no method done correctly requires "no skill" . You insult trainers everywhere when you make statements like that.

I said "To click and treat requires no skill and is easy to learn". No special skill, A novice can do it. You click the moment the dog does the task, then give a treat.... what skills does that take? I am not downing any method, I am just saying what it is.
At some point training needs to have the goal of the dog doing things without a reward, and then some skill may be needed. I am aware of all types of methods of training, by the way, but I don't think anyone on here actually understands what compulsion training should be like. They may have seen someone calling it that, but not doing it right. There really is no simple NAME for a way dog is trained, there are many components, for example, I call my method "positive reinforcement with praise, teaching the dog, and then corrections."

And you do have to see training to understand it, I don't care if other trainers call it something, everybody does their thing differently, and it HAS to change for each dog. If someone has been training dogs 35 years and their results are "mediocre" that means the person is not a good trainer, they do not understand how a dogs mind works, they cannot read dogs.

 Quote: jennifer n. hack

I am aware of all types of methods of training, by the way, but I don't think anyone on here actually understands what compulsion training should be like.

Before continuing, it would be good if you defined "compulsion training."

It would be a benefit to the folks on here who don't "actually understand" what compulsion training is.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

These are great points, Yuko. I don't understand why you'd take the time to motivate and marker train your own pups but are unwilling to put the same kind of effort and consideration into your clients' dogs.

Is it just that the clients are presented with the choice and prefer the heel-in-20-minutes method? Are they aware of the choices?

Did you address this and I missed it?

 Quote: Jennifer N. Hack

You click the moment the dog does the task, then give a treat.... what skills does that take?

There's a fair amount more to it than that... but I guess you missed that part in school.

One thing to consider, when compulsion either shuts the dog down or just doesnt get the desired results you don't have a lot of options. With motivation you can make changes and try again with no real damage done.