Quote:

Unless your looking for points, the difference between a sit/stay and a down/stay is irrelevant and just showing off IMO.

Vince, it is very relevant when dealing with pets. Most pet owners don't have a clue about what their dogs think, feel, need...If I tell a pet to sit, and it lays down, that is a major problem. But, again most owners don't care cuz to them it didn;t matter they just wanted the dog over there. The dog is saying you tell me to do one thing I'll do what I want. As the dog matures this turns into a problem. Sit is Sit, it is not Down.

I am disappointed no one commented on my fix to this problem.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Todd, I'll comment. What you described is pretty much what I do with my (non-competition) dog. He likes to slide into a down if I leave him in a sit for too long (his hips are fine). I don't see much use for a long sit stay, so if I want a longer stay, I'll put him in a down. The sit stay is for short term purposes, at least, for me. Can't speak for everyone! But, if I tell him sit, I expect him to maintain the sit until I release. Downing when I have not released him is not allowed.

Todd:

If you tell a pet to sit and he lies down yes this is a concern. If you tell a dog to sit/stay and after 2 minutes he slips into a down/stay there is no relevance unless to prove that you are the master and you will do what I say. Like I said showing off. Off the field obedience is needed to solve practical applications. A dog must know how to sit if he is jumping on someone or to cut his nails. A dog must know how to come if he is needed close to his handler. Ect,ect. There is no practical purpose that I can think of to keep a dog in a sit for a prolonged period of time that keeping him in a down could not accomplish.

I am sorry, 2 minutes is not a prolonged period of time. I watch dogs sit in the backyard for 10 minutesd at time everyday, sometimes longer on their choosing. If it is an extended period of time yes you as the handler should put your dog in a down. However, this is not my dogs choice to make. What happens if I am at a busy street corner? It is very crowded, a down would be inpractical. When I say sit, you sit. It has nothing to do with showing off. There are plenty of applications where a dog might be needed to sit for a couple of minutes. Simply show the dog what is expected and the dog will do it.

Vince,

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There is no practical purpose that I can think of to keep a dog in a sit for a prolonged period of time that keeping him in a down could not accomplish.

Vince, Question?? What do you do when in the down/stay and he decides to get up, run off, or whatever he wants.

I agree that keeping in the sit/stay for extended amounts of time for no reason as any command should not be done. We as handlers and trainers have to make these decisions/making sure not to cause any mental or physical damage to these dogs.
Did I say mental, Think I did, remember the results of stressing out the animals during training. A very minor command today for one dog can be for what ever reason HELL for another.

What happened to: I SAY/YOU DO in dog training. Going to get a CLICKER yet. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

May just buy a Goldfish, then no corrections will be needed. Just kidding. ha! ha! and who cares if they swim or hover as long as they stay in fishbowel. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Too long winded, going work the old dog!

You said: If you tell a pet to sit and he lies down yes this is a concern.
I agree.

You said: If you tell a dog to sit/stay and after 2 minutes he slips into a down/stay there is no relevance unless to prove that you are the master and you will do what I say. Like I said showing off.
I said: Why is this showing off? No really I say this in a humble way to whom am I showing off?

You said: Off the field obedience is needed to solve practical applications.
I said: This is where we differ. and thats ok!
It is not a problem solving approach that I have.
I approach obedience as a way of life. A structured life that is based on a form of communication that is just so happened to be called obedience.

This has been a great exchange thanks vince for your patience.KOJAK

I'm with Vince on this one. Anything more than 2 minutes seems silly and is just for show. The dog should be in a down.

Crabtree:

"Vince, Question?? What do you do when in the down/stay and he decides to get up, run off, or whatever he wants."

Be honest. Have you read anything that I have been writing? I said I cannot think of a reason to teach a prolonged sit/stay that a down/stay could not accomplish. I never compared a sit/stay to a sit/run off and do whatever you want. But hey if you folks think it is needed. I take my comment back.

Vince,
Read every word you wrote some twice. I agree that a prolonged sit/stay is not needed.

My question is : What do you do when in the down/stay and he decides to get up, run off, or whatever he wants." or in the sit/stay?

Not being a hard A--. just want your valued opinion. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

WOW! What a dialoge! This board is great! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think that I need to point out the fact that my original post concerned a pup that is six months old who will slide from a sit/stay into a down/stay..all the while focused on me and waiting for the next command. I was concerned that I may have been pushing/expecting too much from her given her young age. From the subsequent advice offerings; I realize that I was asking too much of her; especially with the degree of time I was asking of her to sit/stay/down etc.

I am not the "average type of pet owner" who waits till there is an "out of control" dog to quick fix. (I end up with those types of dogs within my foster care to "fix")

Knowing the heritage background of my dog; I have, from day one at 8wks old, initiated an education and socialization program to insure that her head stays on staight, is well mannered, socialized, and a pleasure to be around. That is why I enrolled us in an obedience class which gives us the opportunity during the week to meet and work around other dogs/people. Our class is held outside with more distractions than I care to have; but it has proved to be a valuable education tool.

I am confident that "we" as a team will be sucessful in whatever avenue "we" persue as long as I continue "our" education in a positive manner....24/7..one day at a time.

Dallas and I thank you for all your thoughts and suggestions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />