Quote: Charlie Snyder

The thing that really rankles is the implicit disrespect in the performance of these dogs and, by extension, the judging.

This exercise is, after all, an entry level exercise. Heel 20 feet, meet the attack out of the blind, do a long bite. All on a pretty friendly helper.

These are all SchH3 dogs being presented as the best of the breed at a national event. This well-known prerequisite should be a no-brainer for the dog and the handler. All the dogs and handlers have had a very long time to train for this exercise. It's not a working/show thing, it's a German Shepherd thing.

Well said Charlie. It was PAINFULLY obvious the dogs didn't have what it takes - not by a long shot. This was CLEARLY not a case of show jitters or insufficient training. Too bad the judge didn't do what he should have and not passed the overwhelming majority of them.

Beth wrote in part:

"I would also say to those who are overly critical - let's see YOU out there on the field with your dog. Sieger Show rules do not exclude working lines".

I'll tell you what when show dogs, in meaningful numbers, enter working trials with *working* judges I will enter my dog in a large show. By the way working trials with working judges don't exclude show lines either. This is the issue, as long as show breeders identify breed stock first by how close it mirrors a standard nothing will change and the weakness we all know exist will grow exponentially. This not about bringing the two communities, show and working together in a coumbaya moment. Its about the show community understanding and respecting what the founder of our breed Max von Stephanitz meant when he wrote in the first GSD standard

"A pleasing appearance is desirable, but it can NOT put the dog’s working ability into question! And to be certain he wouldn’t be misunderstood, he coined the phrase: "German Shepherd breeding is Working Dog breeding, or it is not German Shepherd breeding"

Given that just what breed are those dogs, and why in God's name should we make any effort to absorb a subspecies, to what end. For the record the definition of a subspecies is "A race within a species that shows identifiable characteristics" i.e., show line. What does a show line breeding bring to the table other than weak nerves roached backs and little work ethic. Are there some good ones of course but that is not the issue. The issue is remaining true to our founder’s wishes by not perverting the German Shepherd Dog breed.

 Quote:

Too bad the judge didn't do what he should have and not passed the overwhelming majority of them.

Exactly. That is what bothers me the most. And it is not a showline/working line thing, it is the intergrity of the organization.

Trial or show. Judge by the standards in place.

Oh Betty, SNAP girl, you brought out the "I" word!!!! INTEGRITY - yes, that's exactly why I feel duped by what's been happening in the showlines. Lack of Integrity.

I recognize this is not all showline breeders. We have some on this board who work as hard as anyone else, getting legitamite titles on their dogs. I think the big problem is those few "good guys" are over run by the rats.

FOR UScA MEMBERS only: There is currently a petition I hope you will look over and sign (if you haven't already!)

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/EnforcetheRules/index.html

 Quote:

I'll tell you what when show dogs, in meaningful numbers, enter working trials with *working* judges I will enter my dog in a large show. By the way working trials with working judges don't exclude show lines either. This is the issue, as long as show breeders identify breed stock first by how close it mirrors a standard nothing will change and the weakness we all know exist will grow exponentially. This not about bringing the two communities, show and working together in a coumbaya moment. Its about the show community understanding and respecting what the founder of our breed Max von Stephanitz meant when he wrote in the first GSD standard

Our mediocre show line female earned her SchH1 (and her BH, and her AD, and her KKL1, and her V rating) in the bright light of day right here in the US - right along side some working line dogs.

Our slightly better (well, not as good in conformation, but much better in the drives) show line male is looking forward to earning these titles right here in the US. He is currently SG rated (the highest he can be a this time) and earned his AD. We are hoping to go for BH soon, and SchH1 later this year. In the bright lights.

I don't respect the "bought" German titles on show OR working line dogs (and yes, it DOES work both ways) any more than the hard working dog people here do. I dont' respect US "midnight trials" either. And yep. Sadly, sometimes those go both ways too. At least the Sieger Show protection tests are finally finding the bright lite of You Tube. Sadly, the Midnight Trials / German Beer Tent Titles are not - regardless of which dog we're talking about.

In the 2 years of Joliet Schutzhund's existance, I will say that hands down, a few working line GSD's could arguably be described as the best workers. I have also observed many, many dog evaluations where working line GSD's have been the biggest spooks - those where the owners are not only told that SchH isn't in their future with this dog, but they need to get on top of some issues before their dog hurts someone, and they end up in a law suit.

At least the WORST the show line dogs have presented here thus far is lack of drive. (and SAD lack of drive on many occassions - not a good thing) NOT danger related to some combo of questionable genetics / lack of owner ability to train up to what the dog requires.

Susan, thank you for the link to the petition. Suggestion to all UScA Members: When you fill this out, include your UScA member number. This will be a big help to the folks in the USA office who eventually review this, and need to sort that stuff out.

Beth

Beth thank you for your reply and congratulations on your degrees. When we discuss show line or working lines we must consider what happens most of the time and not what happens some times and you and I know what happens most of the time. Moreover you and I know that there are working judges and show judges and very few show groups will ever invite a working judge to judge there trial, and the reason is simple they want to pass. It was difficult for me and I dare say the rest of the working community to watch how weak in temperament the best of the show lines dogs were and the fact most of them got pounced speaks for itself. You are correct there are also some crap working lines dogs. But the difference is no one in the working community wants to breed to them no matter how beautiful they are. I would only hope that one day that show community would also echo that sentiment. For us failure is not the issue, the issue is how the dog failed. For us there is no greater failure than having your dog run off the field. I have found in most instances, the more beautiful the dog the weaker the performance and those videos confirmed that. I will repeat again with what the founder of our breed demanded of the breeder’s of the GSD.

"German Shepherd breeding is Working Dog breeding, or it is not German Shepherd breeding"

 Quote: susan tuck

I recognize this is not all showline breeders. We have some on this board who work as hard as anyone else, getting legitamite titles on their dogs. I think the big problem is those few "good guys" are over run by the rats.

Beth, You are one of the "good guys" I was talking about!

Susan I certainly agree with you in that there are some show line handlers who work hard at getting there working titles, in fact I think in most cases they have to work harder. The difference in each community is how they perceive the trial. For the most part the show community see the trial as a necessary evil on the way to their end result, the show. In fact if you took a poll in the show community and ask if the trial was really necessary, IMO the results would be overwhelmingly, no. The working community views the trial as their end result, and the show as a necessary evil. The show, instead of being a part of identifying breed stock, has taken a life of its own, with the large show kennel's and there many supporters having there own color uniform. It sort of reminds me of a day at races. A competition, if you will, between show handlers to see who has the most beautiful dog with the character and temperament of those dogs subordinated to beauty . Do you think this is what Max von Stephanitz, the founder of the GSD breed had in mind when the wrote in the breeds first standard, which emphasized "utility and intelligence".

"A pleasing appearance is desirable, but it can NOT put the dog’s working ability into question! And to be certain he wouldn’t be misunderstood, he coined the phrase: "German Shepherd breeding is Working Dog breeding, or it is not German Shepherd breeding".