Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Howard Knauf ]
#198524 - 06/13/2008 02:07 AM |
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Apparently therapy dogs are held to a higher standard which is documented. Assistance dogs have to meet no such standard or be documented. Crazy.
One thing you aren't taking into consideration is that the ADA is not there to protect the service dogs... at least not really. They are there to protect the rights of those NEEDING the service dog. Thus the open ended laws. Therapy dogs are regulated because the agency that decided to gove them a try set it up that way, and exists to protect the dogs as well as protect the people FROM the dogs if needed.
Many cities are, from what I've heard, starting to go the route of: in order to have your dog in public you must have a CGC, and have either paperwork or tag or both. It will be interesting to see what happens with that...
As far as this guy goes, I'm glad that it turned out the way that it did, and if he is in fact abusing the system, then I hope he gets caught with it. My guess is, he won't because the place will not want to run the risk even with the statements. Which is sad.
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Howard Knauf ]
#198526 - 06/13/2008 02:19 AM |
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I know this is a sensitive issue but the individual's rights must be balanced with the rights of others and I feel there should be an expectation that the dog you are bringing into a building is safe to be there and have proof showing this .
IMO there needs to be a credible uniform certification process for these dogs nationwide. For the following reasons .
#1 For the safety of the handlers needing these dogs.
Just allowing anyone , qualified or not , to "train" a dog and label it as a service dog is too open for abuse.
I was approached by a man who had an assistance dog for the blind. He wanted help because his dog would run off at the sound of fireworks. Luckily he didn't find this out while trying to cross a busy street.
#2 For the safety of the public. ( I don't think I need to go into this any further )
I don't think the people needing these dogs should be stopped upon entering a building as long as they have a clearly visible vest stating "Service Dog" along with a recognized emblem for the certifying agency. This should be proof enough showing they have a dog certified to interact amongst the public safely. I also feel they should have a card in case a problem arises (dog bites someone , becomes uncontrollable) to further verify it as a legitimate service dog and in order to contact that agency about the dog or handler's issues, to help correct those issues.
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Jim Nash ]
#198536 - 06/13/2008 07:44 AM |
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To connie the service dogs of texas I am not sure of the technical name but thats what I called it they are based out of texas. There is a club in houston let me find the link.
They told me I could start the proccess over but I am not ready to start again yet.
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Howard Knauf ]
#198543 - 06/13/2008 10:21 AM |
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That said; there was no issue with the dog until it got loose and chased people. That it when the dog became the focus of the manager, and ultimately the police.
Now what we have is most certainly a pet that the owner won't leave at home. He knows the loopholes in the ADA service dog criteria and he capitalized on it when he and his dog screwed up. He had the cajones to demand an arrest of the manager even though he was clearly (and knowingly) wrong. The best defense is a good offense and he played it quite well...until he met me.
I have to admit that he had me on the ropes at first. I know a woman who spends 3-4 years training service dogs before they are placed so I was well aware of what is required training. What I didn't know was how wide open the policy is. As soon as Mr. short term memory rattled off the statute number in an effort to intimidate me I immediately looked up the statute on my laptop and bingo!, he had hung himself.
Round two went to my partner and I. The knockout blow will come from animal control. This guy had no shame in what he was doing and he knew he held all the cards. Thats until the dog got aggressive. He intentionally (even though it was not in violation) concealed the fact that the dog was a service dog until the problem occurred. As soon as he was focused on he played the ADA service dog card to the hilt, demanding an arrest.
Again...theres no law that says he has to announce the dogs' purpose, but why bring grief upon yourself? He openly admits he has been harassed before so one would think he would take measures to prevent the alleged harassment.
The only thing that made sense to me was that he was caught bringing his pet into the business...or he was intentionally trying to solicit a violation of law that could lead to civil litigation and a big payday.
The only way for a business to defend against such an incident in court would be good witness statements and the totality of the circumstances which could logically be explained to laymen jurors. Sad, but true. Theres always someone out there trying to get over on someone else. Being disabled is not a disqualifying trait in the scammer's world. If anything, the sympathy card tends to lead good hearted people into believing the scammers story. Sickening!
Well I do think that both you and your partner did a bang up job in the situation. Whether the dog in question is a service animal or not it still fill way way short.
Basically one of the rules from ADA.gov is ..
<LI type=disc>A person with a disability cannot be asked to remove his service animal from the premises unless: (1) the animal is out of control and the animal's owner does not take effective action to control it (for example, a dog that barks repeatedly during a movie) or (2) the animal poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others.
Which obviously this subject and his service animal did not comply to from your description of the incident.
I'd love to see the moron try to bring it to court. From this layman I think with you and your partners notes with the witnesses from the theatre, this guy doesn't have a pot to piss in. Plus with the knock out blow from animal control that he has an aggressive animal ticket to fight in court as well. Should be the nail in his coffin. Maybe next time he will think before opening up his yap. Or at least learn to keep his dog under control!
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Geoff Empey ]
#198553 - 06/13/2008 11:52 AM |
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IMO animal control's fines will just be tuition for this guy's education. Sadly, as good as I feel about exposing this guy, he also gained valuable information that he can use on another unsuspecting business owner. He was a miserable person and I have no doubt he will continue to try again but only be more diligent and cautious.
I would like to think we showed him the error in his ways but I'm not holding my breath.
I did offer my services to the theater manager to testify on his behalf in court as an expert witness should he need help in a civil suit. Some things are just worth going the extra mile for.
Howard
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Jim Nash ]
#198556 - 06/13/2008 12:19 PM |
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IMO there needs to be a credible uniform certification process for these dogs nationwide. For the following reasons .
#1 For the safety of the handlers needing these dogs.
#2 For the safety of the public.
Exactly how I feel, Jim! I would think it would be more embarassing for a disabled person to enter a business with an 'unmarked' dog to be stopped & questioned, than to just have it wear a service dog harness/vest.
I also agree with the other point made, that a patch from one governing authority would make it beyond questioning, so at sight of the patch, the people are left to be 'normal' customers, and not approached at all.
Sasha |
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Megan Berry ]
#198557 - 06/13/2008 12:36 PM |
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Another good reason to be able to identify the dog on sight would be to keep people from fawning all over the dog, especially kids. Who knows what kind of disease the dog might contract from a bunch of strangers making contact. If it is a real service dog that costs loads of money, why chance injuring the dog or getting him sick? Just sayin'.
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Megan Berry ]
#198558 - 06/13/2008 12:49 PM |
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This whole subject is very sensitive to me because I'm profoundly deaf. I have no intent to use a service dog for now since I feel fine doing things on my own. I grew up with family dogs who didn't receive any formal trainings to help me with little things like doorbell. They always ran to the doorbell when it rang. They enjoyed hanging out with me in my bedroom. I have never taken them to anywhere in public because they didn't receive a formal training.
It upsets me a lot when people abuse the right that we (disability people) have fought for so long to get ADA passed. I assumed that they all started working on ADA in the 1970s until it finally passed in 1990 while George Bush was the president.
It is frustrated that we get to experience with discrimination everyday with service dogs and other issues like jobs, etc. A few months ago, I posted a thread about a young boy who was denied to bring his service dog to his school because they didn't think he needs one.
It makes me so angry when a person brought his fake service dog to the movie theater and allowed his dog act like that, it amazed me how much little they have a respect for other people who worked so darn hard to get a law passed. It is easier to remove a law than to pass one. If this scam artists kept messing around with their fake service dogs, who knows the law will change and say that we ( the people with disability) can't bring them anywhere?
I'm curious how does leerburg screen out for service and police dogs vests? I'm sure that Ed and Cindy don't want to sell a service vest to anyone who is lying about having a fake service dog.
"It's better to be an optimist who is sometimes wrong than a pessimist who is always right" |
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Howard Knauf ]
#198560 - 06/13/2008 01:09 PM |
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IMO animal control's fines will just be tuition for this guy's education. Sadly, as good as I feel about exposing this guy, he also gained valuable information that he can use on another unsuspecting business owner. He was a miserable person and I have no doubt he will continue to try again but only be more diligent and cautious.
I would like to think we showed him the error in his ways but I'm not holding my breath.
Well hopefully in the same context that this liar may use this as tuition for his education hopefully the theatre and other local businesses get educated from this as well. As it has to go both ways, there must be some sort of government newsletter or info that is available for businesses to learn of their rights and obligations as it pertains to this 'act'.
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Re: The Assistance Dog Scam?!!
[Re: Geoff Empey ]
#198566 - 06/13/2008 01:43 PM |
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I'm sure there is but, like anything else it gets lost in the shuffle of the other thousands of pieces of information/legislation that the business must comply with. I'm betting this guy was banking (literally) on that.
At least in this case the business has had its eyes opened.
Howard
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