Dave,

Sorry I spelled the guy's name wrong (I haven't looked at that stuff for 20 years, and never was very fond of the theory). I would like to hear how you have changed you training methods too. But I still believe we are all talking about the same things, that doesn't mean that the method of using it can't be modified.

The things you have mentioned so far fit nicely in defentitions used in drive theory, just called a different name. Listing an emotion called boredom would nicely parallel denial of drive satisfaction by restricing motion, or reinforcement theory by restricting access to a reinforcer. There are a lot of ways to describe the same process. As I said before, if we are going to talk about this stuff there as to be some accepted definitions, or we do just what we are doing, argue about terms and not talking about using the processes in a more efficient manner.

Emotion is more typically described as a feeling that is predominant over cognition or volition. I don't see how that would fit. I also get the impression that you are saying that you can create a desire that wouldn't other wise exist. The comparison would be to create drive where there is none. That would be extreamly interesting because that is at total opposition to what most believe. Under that premis any dog should be able to be trained to an acceptable level, reguardless of genetics for doing the work. The ability to do that would be very interesting because it is so totally different from what people currently believe.

Sex is an emotion? Please explain that. We as humans attach emotions to it but sex is a physical act. The result can make us happy, it can make us sad but we can also be completely indifferent. Are hunger and the need to relieve bodily wastes emotions too?

Ok Richard... using my example of creating a boredom emotion by keeping the dog in a down. How does drive theory explain that? Is that boredom drive?

I simply don't have the time to go into all of the details... I guess if you give everything a drive-name... pee drive... scratch drive etc...it may have the same effect.

Princlydeeds... the DESIRE for anything is an emotion.

Maybe now we're getting back around to what my problem is here. Other dogs I've trained were more or less like this: You want me to chase what you just threw? Okay. Sure, as time goes on most dogs will show a preference for a favorite toy, but my issue with Cal is that the only things she REALLY wants to chase are animals. As I've said, she'll play ball or tug just fine in an enclosed space. But once she's outside, the scent of game seems to override all of her other circuitry. Certainly one cannot say that Cal has NO PREY DRIVE. So the question becomes--how to channel her real prey drive into the pursuit of non-living things???

As I mentioned before I had a similar thing with my dog after she got a hold of a rabbit and tasted the fun I guess. Now I had her since puppy so I KNOW what all happened with her and I quickly tried to fix this behaviour. It will be much harder if the dog is older and has this bad behaviour already print in them.
I fixed it with a prong collar, other collar and long leash or teletac what ever you think is necessary for your dog. And I went to places where I could trigger this situation as soon she start that behaviour I gave her a correction (with collar it is good to use long leash to get a good strong correction (it is better one good one than 10 bad ones) I just try to make clear to the dog that this behaviour was wrong and chasing the toy is what is right and more fun. And it is up to you to make it more fun for the dog. And I must say my dog still has tons of prey and she still likes to search as before but on human scent. This is how I fixed this. It is now to the point I can keep her next to me without leash next to birds etc. I also sometimes give her the freedom to chase birds (ONLY birds because she can't catch these) and on a whistle she comes back to me (off course they fly off) but when she comes to me I play with her intense. Just to make clear playing with me is much more fun. Problem with this if she catches one I can start ALL OVER again because then she got her reward.

Off course I played close on the bal and an older dog where you don't know what happened with him can be much harder. But I would keep in for months on a long leash (or e collar if you work with that) and let the leash lose on the ground and play and as he wonders off grab it and correct him.

Dave,

No boredom wouldn't be a drive, it would be restricting the ability to achiece drive satisfaction. Any drive. The denial of drive satidfaction increases the desire to get that satisfaction. Since many of the things that are involved with drive satisfaction cover many behaviors, and can be manipulated individually or in groups, you don't need a drive for every single behavior. In addition some things aren't required to be drives as they are physical requirements (pee drive). Scraching is a behavior, the motivation for it would be a drive, most likely prey drive.

I still don't see how calling these motivations by different, even if more specific, names changes the use of those motivations. That is were the difference would come in, a more creative use of those desires to shape the behaviors desired. Again if you are saying you can create those desires without the genetic component, or if you are saying there is no genetic component, then I am even more interested. I, personaly, am a believer that there is a larger component of nurture than nature than most people accept.

Thanks to everyone... and please pardon me if I stay out of the "drive vs. emotion" argument... like I said, I'm not a theorist although I don't mind hearing different theories.

I may have blundered onto a solution to the problem this morning (much along the lines, interestingly, of what Mickey-Belgium just posted above). I noticed that Cal was coveting a new tennis ball I had just been tossing around the yard for my male dog. My line of thought was, "Fine, you want the ball, let's play with the ball. But on MY terms."

I put Cal on a regular fur saver (usually she's wearing a prong when we train) and took her out in the yard (as opposed to the park). Hooked her up to a 30-ft. nylon tracking lead.

As soon as we were out the door, I could see that I really had her attention--she wanted that ball in the worst way. Since this was a new ball it had a lot of bounce; I threw it hard against the ground so it went way up in the air. She jumped so high after the ball that she literally flipped over, then proceeded to pounce on her "kill".

This was the first time I had ever really seen her transfer her predatory urge onto an inanimate object.

Needless to say I tried to keep her in drive for as long as possible. When Cal would start to wander off (scenting squirrels in a nearby tree), I would gently pop the lead and she'd come trotting back to me--whereupon I would fire the ball again and off she'd go. Even though she wanted to settle down with her "prize," I would pop the lead (gently!) to get her to bring it back to me. Then I'd "fight" her for the ball to start bringing her drive up again.

It was a real good session. From now on I think I'm going to take her immediately out to the YARD (for the time being) with a new ball. Then, after she's worked WITH ME for the ball, she can go for a walk, do her thing, etc. I want to teach her to associate prey games with playing with me. I may be on the road.

Your suggestions have been very helpful. Thanks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pete

Richard... scratching comes from PREY? I thought it came from being itchy and the resulting emotional DESIRE for comfort. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Some people are MORE emotional than others as are some dogs. I actually don't believe that NAMING drives or emotions is of much use in actual training.

Emotions or Drives... all have one common denominator... DESIRE. DESIRE can be created and manipulated in thousands of ways.

For me, having a more clear understanding of this has encouraged me to seek out new ways of creating desire... that don't come from one of the commonly known "drives"... so I guess that's the bottom line.

Dave wrote:"Of course being hungry creates an emotion... that emotion stimulates the individual to act... ever take high school biology?"

Cute. . .

Anyway, you said that "of course being hungry CREATES an emotion" and I said, "is being hungry an emotion?"

Is that what you mean, because if it is, then you answered my question for me. Hunger is the drive that would be creating the emotion in your model, right?


And, I still fail to see how you train differently than I do. Well. . .except maybe I'm a better trainer. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (remember Davy, just jokes here big guy)

Richard wrote: "No boredom wouldn't be a drive, it would be restricting the ability to achieve drive satisfaction. Any drive. The denial of drive satisfaction increases the desire to get that satisfaction."

Nice post.

VanCamp wrote: "hunger is the drive that creates emotion..."

Nope. Hunger is a physiological state of chemical imbalance where nutrition is needed. The body sends signals to the brain that tell it to seek out food. These signals are what Psychologists refer to as emotion.

If you want to call the brain signals "drive"... I guess I won't argue.

However, scientists have discredited the 1920's era theories based on drives and instincts.

In the late 1970's the "cognitive era" began where scientists increasingly examined what actually happens during biological and mental processes.

Top trainers have learned this stuff through experience although they don't always understand why it works.

Flinks is a good example... he uses certain types of petting to generate a "good feeling" in the dog... this is added to the standard reward process.