There's no golden middle.

The working ability of a dog has not only to do with training but genetics.

If people want real trials then perhaps the dogs should be pressured the way working lines are.

Mike, your wisdom unfortunately is not heard a lot of the time... Sad.

Norman,
My only answer to that (and I am not her) is that she is a SL breeder, but, places high value in the working dog's ability and sees that there is a problem in the working ability of SL dogs. I think that if you read her site and her history you will be find it to be interesting and insightful. She is not a run-of-the-mill breeder. She takes it very seriously and has turned her program in to a science. Many of the breeders of WL (or SL)dogs would do well to learn from her. So that you understand I am on your side with this. Of the dogs I own four are WL and one is SL. No one has to convince me about the differences. I truly believe that the WL GSD is superior to the SL GSD in every aspect. I also agree with what Mike S. has written on this. The problem is that his ideas only hold true in a perfect world. It is good to strive for this though.
My other issue that I have will all of this is that if we only bred WL GSD's we would water down those dogs as well. I think that it is already happening. How many people on this board that own WL GSD's actually go out and train them every day, or every week, or once a month, six months, etc??? Most of the WL GSD's are pets just like most of the SL and American GSD's. If that is the truth, and I believe it is, then the buyer should be able to buy whatever they like and for whatever reason, including looks. How many of the WL GSD owners on here bought their dog because of the way it looks? The truth is that since the industrial revolution took a strong hold over our culture, dogs (and cats) have become and probably always will be pets for 99.999% of us. Of all the dogs produced how many are actually, truly, a "working dog"? I do not mean dogs competing in sports. I do not mean the weekender SAR dog. I mean a real bonafide working dog. One that you take to work with you every day, that performs a function, and it helps you earn your living. Probably less than .001.

Norman, as a side note. Please take a look at the AWDF web site. They are going to start holding Schutzhund trials with the old rules. Gun shots, vertical scaling wall, stick hits, etc. You and your dog will have to start over at the beginning regardless of your titles. I am also working on getting some clubs to hold Sch trials the way that the Czechs and Slovaks do it. Much tougher and much more comprehensive breed survey concerning the dogs working ability. I spoke to Taunya Mravik from Eurosport K-9 at the WUSV about this and she is all for it and very supportive.

enrique writes: "If people want real trials then perhaps the dogs should be pressured the way working lines are."

I could NOT agree with you more!!! I tell every helper who works on my dog, do not treat her like a show dog, she isn't trained like a show dog. I do not want any helper working my dogs like the helpers have been instructed to work dogs at sieger shows. That cheapens the work my dogs and I have done, and it certainly doesn't show them to the best of their abilities.

On another note, I see absolutely no reason why a SL breeder cannot breed a show line dog to a working line dog (especially if they know what they are doing, and Maggie does!) I have every intention of breeding my female to a working line dog in a couple of years. There is nothing wrong with trying to improve your breeding program. If breeding to a working line dog can add something your program needs and you are willing to follow through with the couple of generations of breeding that is needed, great! I also understand that working line breeders see absolutely NO reason to breed one of their females to a show line dog, and I agree, why take a step backwards, when there are PLENTY of excellent V rated WL males out there to choose from. Wish we in show lines were lucky enough to have more V rated show males who ACTUALLY aren't ill tempered, oversized, spooks who jump off the sleeve if hit with a feather duster, or the threat of a hit with that feather duster....oh but those males are given the exaulted title of VA1. But I digress.

i think breeders should be striving for the elusive "golden middle" as you put it. is it possible that SL dogs (in general) are typically raised very differently than WL dogs and that also plays a part in the end result?

i heard Mike's wisdom and respect it, just dont agree with all of it. disagreeing is not the same as not hearing or understanding a point of view.

can you explain to me what a "real trial" is vs what goes on that *isn't* real by your definition? i asm asking this sincerely, not sarcastically. what has changed? i did SchH back in the late 80's. so i am not aware of the changes you are referring to. please explain. and anyone else--plz. what changes, who did it and why? thx.

Enrique,
There's no golden middle.
(This is your opinion. What is your basis for this?)

The working ability of a dog has not only to do with training but genetics.
(I agree. Are you doing everything that you can to maximize your dog's genetic potential? Probably not. Charlie is doing everything he can to maximize the genetic potential of the dogs he was hired to breed. To me this says a lot more for him than most of the people that own WL GSD's and do nothing with them. You would be lucky to have someone like him train your dog regardless of WL, SL, or poodle!)
If people want real trials then perhaps the dogs should be pressured the way working lines are.
(Dogs are pressured at different venues for a number of reasons. You may have a WL GSD that scores a 290 at club level event. Take it to a national and you may not get much more than a 265. If you are a well known national level competitor and you show up at local event you will get scored much tougher than a local level competitor and your dog will be pressured more than the local dog. Like it or not that's life!)

Mike, your wisdom unfortunately is not heard a lot of the time... Sad.
(I'll leave this one alone!)

I personally do not care for the term "golden middle". I find breeders use this term to mean low drive, pet quality. To me that isn't a golden middle. If people are looking for a golden middle, get a golden retriever.

I remember reading the Capt's definition of golden middle, and I wish I could remember where it was in the book, so that I could quote it correctly.

There is a golden middle but IMO it's not so golden and if you want to maintain a breed you should not breed for it. Regards Norman

Dee,
i guess i misunderstodd what he was meaning w/that term....i though he meant that elusive perfect balance, where all the important traits come together....
then again, i am guessing with all of the diff intentions, goals, uses, *opinions* and criterion people have, it's impossible that people would agree on what that woudl be anyhow! its easy enough to say to "follow the standard", but even that is subject to a degree of interpretation.

MALINOIS AND DUTCHIE PEOPLE PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS!!!!! DON'T LET POPUALRITY MESS UP YOUR BREED THE WAY IT HAS OURS. YOU ONLY NEED TO LOOK TO CERTAIN ATTITUDES IN THIS THREAD TO SEE WHAT CAN HAPPEN TO YOUR BREED TOO.

I had a whole big post for this thread, but then I erased it. Some people will just never get it. Our breed, (like the Dutchie and Mali) is a UTILITARIAN breed. They are meant to be in the service of man, not in a show ring running around in one direction. They are meant to have a job and not as a lawn ornament or a couch potato. Popularity has made everyone think they should have a GSD regardless of whether they can provide the right environment for one. How selfish. Popularity has allowed breeders to breed for whatever exaggerated features judges award because they think it looks so pretty running around the show ring. What a shame.

Susan,
You are too late!
There are already differentiations in the Malinois and especially in the Dutch Shepherd. The Dutchies that are being shown are not the dogs that are a part of the KNPV program. The KNPV dogs have no pedigree, but, the show Dutchies do.