But you as a handler are not really communicating WITH the dog if using an e-collar. There is no connection there, no working as a real team. The analogy between email and snail mail doesn't really hold up here. I think its more like speaking face to face vs. email. There's more effective communication through direct interaction.

I won't dispute you can't get results with an e-collar, but at what expense? True communication between dog and handler.

I continue to learn about e-collars, but the more I learn the more I don't think I'll ever use one. Just my personal choice...

I think its great that we have options and the choice to use them to be able to make better informed decisions. The wealth of information is amazing. Thanks to everyone for making this topic a very interesting and informative one.

Nori

Catherine wrote: But you as a handler are not really communicating WITH the dog if using an e-collar. There is no connection there, no working as a real team.

***** I get the feeling that WE’RE not communicating here so let me ask, what type of communication are YOU talking about??? Do you require a leash for this back and forth communication??? If so, what happens when you go off leash with the dog???

Catherine wrote: There's more effective communication through direct interaction.

***** Not sure what you mean by “direct interaction.” I rarely have my own (pet) dogs on a leash, and my police dogs are only on leash at two times. During training and during crowd control.

Catherine wrote: I won't dispute you can't get results with an e-collar, but at what expense? True communication between dog and handler

***** Now there’s a new term, “True communication.” Is this something different or the same as “direct interaction.”

I'm just not very good at communicating in writing. I prefer face to face!

I use a prong collar and a lead right now for communicating with my pup - we're not to the off leash stage. I want my pup to know that the corrections and directions are coming from me and I want her to obey out of the bond I have with her. I'm learning she also reads me through the lead and picks up on subtle messages that I'm not even aware I'm sending - some good, some bad (I'm still a novice). For example, just this morning I noticed that when a loud car would approach from behind, I was tightening my grip on the lead in anticipation of her possible flight. I made a conscious effort to not do that and noticed a positive change. It may just have been coincidence but I don't think it was.

True communication isn't really a term - its just poor writing.

I believe that just because something's easier doesn't mean its better. In this case, I don't think the same level of trust and respect can be achieved between handler and dog and thats not fair to the dog.

We have all been novices at one time.. and as we experience new and different things we grow and change.. I have been training dogs for 20 years or so now.. and in the beginning I didn't want to see a dog corrected! I said.. whew.. i could never do that! But over the years.. from watching others, putting into practice different techniques.. I have developed my own style of training. I have a pretty complete tool box.. I have leashes, chain collars, pinch collars, promise collars, electric collars, clickers, food, toys...I LOVE working dogs! I LOVE the freedom my electric collar gives my dogs and myself. The communication begins with the teaching of the animal.. the teaching starts up close and personal. There comes a time when you want to take the leash off your dog.. and when you do... you need a tool that can reinforce what you have taught him up close. If you have a soft, sensitive, clingy dog that isn't self confident.. you may never experience the dog wanting to leave you.. There are plenty of dogs like this.. but my dogs are very confident, high energy, and independent. I need to be able to say HEY! REMEMBER ME! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

All i can say is just keep an open mind. this is so important in training.. Two years ago I wouldn't have ever considered using a clicker.. but it really works well for many things.
There are alot of people out there that don't use the e collar correctly. And it is very sad to watch. It would be great if you could see someone that was really well versed in the collar.. you don't have to like it... you don't have to use it..but it would give you a more balanced view of what it does.

Catherine wrote: I want my pup to know that the corrections and directions are coming from me and I want her to obey out of the bond I have with her.

***** I think that a dog being trained with an Ecollar associates the spoken of hand command from the handler and therefore knows where the correction is coming from. But because there’s no direct connection, there’s no conflict as often occurs with leash training. I’ve seen dogs getting stimmed bite their handlers so I don’t think they’re completely fooled.

***** As far as obeying because of a bond… I’m not so sure that such a thing occurs. I think that because of the relationship between the dog and handler there’s respect and trust, but I don’t think that leads to obeying a command. I think that can come from a simple OC type of training or from an alpha giving a beta a command. You obviously disagree and that’s OK.

Catherine wrote: I'm learning she also reads me through the lead and picks up on subtle messages that I'm not even aware I'm sending - some good, some bad (I'm still a novice). For example, just this morning I noticed that when a loud car would approach from behind, I was tightening my grip on the lead in anticipation of her possible flight. I made a conscious effort to not do that and noticed a positive change. It may just have been coincidence but I don't think it was.

***** I don’t think it was a coincidence either. But I’m pretty sure that the communication that you speak of occurred not JUST via the leash. I’m gonna guarantee that your anticipation of the flight wasn’t NOT just through tightening up your grip on the lead. It was a tightening of your whole body. Dogs are experts at reading body language or they would not have survived the couple of years that they’ve been around.

***** Here’s the good news. Had you been training with an Ecollar you wouldn’t have tightened up your grip, or the rest of your body. Because you knew that you could stop the chase if it occurred.

Catherine wrote: I believe that just because something's easier doesn't mean its better. In this case, I don't think the same level of trust and respect can be achieved between handler and dog and thats not fair to the dog.

***** I agree that easier doesn’t not mean better. BUT if it’s easier, faster, has less impact on the dog and gets the training done, it think it’s better.

***** As far as establishing a level of trust and respect with the dog… I think that’s best discussed in another topic, under that title.

Catherine,

Your like a dog chasing it's tail, you're not going anywhere. It's only making us dizzy.

Then don't read my posts or answer them. I'm sure you have better things to do with your time.

I'll stop anyway - I'm probably spinning in a circle because I've found nothing to break me out of it. I'm just finding the more answers I get the more convinced I am I will not use an e-collar.

Catherine,

That's okay. It's better you don't ever use an e-collar. You need to be able to "listen" in order to learn how to use one properly.

Catherine,

It is fairly simple. An e-collar is another tool to train a dog. It works well for a lot of people. Not everybody likes them, not everybody uses them. It does not change the relationship with your dog any more than using a collar and leash. If you have ever read Gullivers travels, it is the difference in cracking the small end or large end of your hard boiled egg. Thats all.