Quote: Kristel Smart

.... If the dog doesn't know what a correction means, it's completely ineffective.

... As evidenced by having to repeat a physical correction fifteen times ....

Nothing that is appropriate and effective has to be repeated fifteen times in one demo. Mention was made later of exaggeration having been done ... too bad no clarification was made.

 Quote: konnie hein

I spend a couple of sessions teaching a dog what a correction means and how to avoid it. I do this with a prong and I also do it with an e-collar.

To me, it's critical that a dog learn what the correction means and how to "escape" or respond to it, depending on what behavior you're training.

With both the prong and the e collar, how do you go about teaching/ensuring that the dog understands what the correction means and knows how to escape it?

In one of the free streaming videos with Michael Ellis (I think it was in lecture part one or two), he talks about teaching puppies how to turn off the pressure using the leash. I think his explanation is pretty spot on and a great place to start. The basic gist of the idea is to reward the puppy for giving in to leash pressure.

The other part of the equation is making sure the dog knows exactly what's expected and is in a position to give you what you want. It's one thing to correct a dog who just doesn't feel like doing what you asked (usually this is when the dog will take the correction and comply immediately), and a dog that is overwhelmed and/or confused by what is asked of him (this dog usually acts surprised by the correction and either shuts down, winds up, or occasionally will run through known behaviors hoping to hit on the right one).

A fairly applied physical correction accompanying or immediately following a known verbal correction is much more clear that just a series of physical corrections, and of course the dog needs to know EXACTLY what you want.

Oh yes! I remember that lecture. Does doing this help prevent the dog from becoming overwhelmed later when you give a correction for not following a known obedience command? (assuming the dog knows what's expected)

It's a start. Once the puppy learns to relax and give to pressure instead of fighting it, he learns that his behavior has the power to turn the pressure off.

It translates well as applies to corrections: If the dog knows that his behavior directly effects his experience, a correction for outright disobedience makes sense. This way it can be a learning tool; a consequence instead of out and out 'punishment'.

I prefer to keep things very positive, and teach through POSITIVE consequences as much as possible. The reality is, though, that some dogs need to know that there is the possibility of a negative consequence. I just think they should be judiciously applied.

I just logged on and I am thoroughly surprised and impressed to see that leaving the thread alone for a bit after my response got the kind of responses that should have come in the first place - if one was concerned about my training, rather than the attacks and "witty" comments that originally were left.

I really hope you guys can appreciate the difference between the two.

I also hope you can see that after the emotions were taken out of the equation a mostly rational and constructive discussion took place. Please try to keep that in mind if you are going to respond to others (or myself) in the future.

I would like to respond to the questions that were posed and explain now that I feel the responses will actually be taken as comment and discussion, not as defensiveness. I am going out and will comment later.

How much later? It's now closing in on a full day since you decided that we were good enough for you.

Angela, I have no intention of letting this thread go quietly away.

Quote:'Please guys, help me understand what went wrong! Here's the story.'
end quote from Angela Palance.

Second paragraph of the opening post Angela, so I don't want any more of this whiny BS memes about hi-jacked threads or how you're being pick on with off topic vendictives.

This thread from the very beginning has been about how this dog was handled. If you want to know what went wrong, stop playing some soap opera drama queen and answer our damn questions!

So far they have been very simple questions that could have been answered in few words. Far fewer words than six pages of this ridiculous back and forth avoidance you've been engaged in.

Alright Ms. big time trainer, once again.
What other methods did you employ on a dog that, and I quote you again," had never been corrected for not complying".

The only other technique I've gleaned from your one lone training tidbit is moving the leash to the live ring (which of course you have never done before).

What methods were used that in the end came to fifteen hardline corrections for the relatively easy exercise of a simple down?

Randy

I think what went wrong, Angela, is you lost your patience with a young dog who wouldnt comply when you had people watching.

What you may have thought was no distractions very well could have been to the dog. I've had times with one dog where I know I'm just flat and not interesting to him so rather then prong him into submission, I crate him and relax then start over with a better attitude.

You'd be surprized how much pressure some dogs can feel from your attitude alone.

I also would not have looked for 10 reps of the excercise after the whooping. One success and bingo, we're done. Lets play and forget all the stress.

I'm not completely against a little compulsion but the way I read the original post, it seems to me you werent doing it for any necessary training reason.

 Quote: steve strom

I think what went wrong, Angela, is you lost your patience with a young dog who wouldnt comply when you had people watching. ... What you may have thought was no distractions very well could have been to the dog. I've had times with one dog where I know I'm just flat and not interesting to him so rather then prong him into submission, I crate him and relax then start over with a better attitude. ... I also would not have looked for 10 reps of the excercise after the whooping. One success and bingo, we're done. Lets play and forget all the stress. ... I'm not completely against a little compulsion but the way I read the original post, it seems to me you werent doing it for any necessary training reason.

Just wanted to add that a repeated physical correction to a dog who is distracted or confused or uneasy can be a major trigger to making the dog both overwhelmed and frustrated.

The stress of the first physical correction (and it was pointed out in the O.P. that he had never been corrected like this), from someone who was not even his handler, in a room full of people and other dogs, can easily cause a kind of shutdown, with nothing going on the dog's mind for a period of time besides confusion about this new and unclear treatment, repeated over and over.

Of course, this is all beside the major point, which is that fifteen prong corrections would not be appropriate as described in any circumstances. If the correction had been "started too low," discovering that and adjusting for it is not a fifteen-repetitions protocol.

There are many possible explanations for why the handler experienced what she perceived as non-compliance, but they don't point to physical corrections repeated fifteen (or ten, or five) times.

I too would ask: "What methods were used that in the end came to fifteen hardline corrections for the relatively easy exercise of a simple down?"

As for the O.P.'s condescending comment:
"I also hope you can see that after the emotions were taken out of the equation a mostly rational and constructive discussion took place. Please try to keep that in mind if you are going to respond to others (or myself) in the future, "
I hope that this is clear to all reading the thread: Emotions are going to be triggered here when a description of abusive training is presented as an equipment-use demo given for a class of new owners/handlers/trainers. Board members tried to get explanation/details in case there were errors in describing the event, but to no avail.

What was also hoped for was a post about having made a mistake in the heat of the moment, perhaps out of embarrassment over continued non-compliance and lack of success in eliciting the desired behavior, perhaps out of frustration .... but not continued non-responses focused on "attacks and 'witty' comments."

Yes, this board can be very uncaring about the feelings of the human when training methods like what was described are the topic. Attempts to clarify and to get explanation of why the procedure was not abusive have been completely blown off.