Quote: natalya zahn

 Quote: melissa thom

The second link I heard about was in the russian silver fox project where they selected silver foxes at a fur farm based upon temperament alone. The resulting generations produced dog like foxes with traditional dog color patterns (spotted coats with a blaze and socks), floppy ears, barking, tail wagging, and absolutely ruined the coat for fur production.

Trying to remember, but I'm pretty sure Temple Grandin sites this study in her book Animals In Translation (along with a thorough discussion of the consequences of single trait breeding, which she states causes "warped evolution"). If I also remember correctly, she discusses personal observations she's made about links between forehead hair whorls on livestock (various breeds of cattle and horses) and temperament (high strung vs more docile) - not from selective breeding for hair whorl placement, but as a general genetic connection between physical appearance and behavior. Hope I'm not mixing authors, but as far as information goes, there are links out there (official and anecdotal).

This thread has taken and interesting direction!
~Natalya

It is pretty common at our stables to check a horses whorl.
About the hair whorls, I remembered this article of Temples "The Dangers of Trait Over-Selection" http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html It is a very interesting article to say the least.
Hair Whorls
The brain forms in the fetus at the same time as skin and hair. In our lab at Colorado State University, we provided the first scientifically documented evidence of a relationship between hair whorl positions on the forehead in cattle and differences in temperament. Horsemen have also observed a casual relationship between the position of hair whorls on a horse's forehead and temperament. A hair whorl positioned high above the eyes is said to be related to a flighty temperament.
Cattle also have hair whorls on the forehead similar to horses. We conducted research on hair whorl positions and temperament in cattle because it was easy to find large numbers of cattle with similar genetics and similar early experiences. In a study of 1,500 cattle at a commercial feedlot, we found that cattle with hair whorls above the eyes fought more in a squeeze chute during vaccinations, and were clearly more frightened by restraint compared to cattle Selecting Whole Animals

Genetic selection can either improve or destroy a horse's ability to perform. Horse breeders need to be careful and not over-select for single appearance or performance traits. They need to look at the whole animal.

 Quote: jaana aadamsoo

Around here we don´t mix the coats anymore but the longhaired ones are mellower than the shorthaired but the wires have often with almost terrier-like temperaments. I have thought it is because of the longhaired dogs cuddly appearance that made pet-people take them and breed for lower energy dogs that are more problem free to keep as couchpillows.

It could be. The same question has been debated on the yahoo group GSD_Genetics I am a moderator on. Since the laanghaar (ll), laangstockhaar (Ll), and plush coats (Ll) are not usually bred for working as is the stockhaar (LL).

Its like the old question, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

 Quote: connie sutherland

"Hasn't anyone else noticed that Groenendaels and Tervurens are generally mellower than Malinois?" (Joy)

I know a lot of Mals in our club, at the local shelter, and one I fostered. Groenendaels and Tervurens are not thick on the ground where I live. I have met one Terv and maybe one Groenendael.

I know a lot more GSDs. The coat link to mellow personality isn't something I've heard of or seen, but I'm very interested in it. Is there a citation or link for more material?

Very interesting subject.

I know the phenomenom has been discussed on GSD_Genetics@yahoogroups.com , but can't remember if any particular study, or simply anecdotal evidence was quoted. I'll look it up and get back to you in the next few days, hopefully.

 Quote: steve strom

Hey Joy, where did you come across enough Groenendaels to generalize anything? Lol.

There are more Groenendael breeders in Arizona than GSD breeders. GSDs are not common here. But I have been training dogs since the 60s and have trained over 2000 dogs. Granted, a majority were GSDs in both police (where I started) and guide dogs (which I still train), but I've trained very many breeds of pets, including Groenendaels and Terverens.

 Quote: randy allen

Okay,
It seems to be agreed that the two lines 'seem' to have different temperaments, true?

So a rough coat breeder has a smothie thrown, would one expect that smoothie to have a different temperament from the rest of the litter?
Let's say any more than one would expect in the range of a litter any ways that is.

Two roughs can't throw a smooth. Rough is recessive. It is homozygous ll, while smooth can be homozygous LL or heterozygous Ll and carry the rough coat gene. Two smooth can potentially throw a rough, if they are heterozygous for the trait.

But in GSDs (German Shepherd Dogs) the Ll's are intermediate in coat type to the LL's and ll's. Could be other alleles modifying things. In GSDS there is:

LL = Stockhaar (The typical GSD coat.)
Ll = A range from Laangstockhaar (Medium long with thick undercoat.) to plush (between the length of the laangstockhaar and the stockhaar with a thick undercoat.)
ll = Laanghaar (Long and with little undercoat.) This last is the least desirable as it has minimal weather resistance.

As you can see, both coat length and undercoat are both affected, that is why there is speculation that there are modifying genes in play.

It may be an age old question enre to the chicken. But on a dog forum we don't give a a tinkers dam, we only feed our dogs one or the other. Either the chicken or the egg.

THE QUESTION we're talking about is the sweeping statement of coat type relating to the temperament of a dog if its brethren are normally of a shorter length.
Furthermore, Joy, true long hairs are reasonably rare in the GSD. Long hair GSDs are called long hair when they have no undercoat, only the longer guard hair. They are truly ugly and absolutely useless in weather.
The longer coats are called plush when the guard hair are long but having the proper undercoat.

So far we've had one person step up and said they know of one group of dogs whose temperament is different in accordance with coat length. Not, by the way GSDs.
She said she felt that was because they have been selectively bred for companion animals.
So Joy, what animals are you refering to when talking about lower keyed animals when they come out with longer coats?

ETA,
And someone who is familar with Collies said the yes, two roughs CAN throw a smothie.

Joy,
Have you graduated to guide dog trainer in the last month?

http://www.dogmagazine.net/archives/622/goal-the-german-shepherd-dog/

Second post, dated nov. 9th 09

TervUrens.

I dated a guy in AZ for a few years. Saw lots of GSDs...don't remember any Groenendaels or Tervs. I did know one Groenendael personally. The long haired versions of typically short haired dogs I have known personally were a tad more laid back, but OTOH, they were more vicious when provoked. I liked them both. Not so annoying around the house as their true "Mal" littermates, but do NOT piss them off...

I find these debates very interesting though I don't see them ever being concretely resolved. There are many things said about the temperament of black dogs as well.

Randy, great link. Not to stray off topic, but that's a really interesting article...and I feel like the author has been listening in on my conversations, LOL. We are in a lot of trouble w/this "single purpose" breeding mentality...this is the whole reason I finally bit the bullet and started breeding myself.

Uh-huh

 Quote: Jaana Aadamsoo

 Quote: Joy van Veen

Of course this is a percentage, not all. The same is true in at least some other breeds. The Dachshund comes to mind.

Around here we don´t mix the coats anymore but the longhaired ones are mellower than the shorthaired but the wires have often with almost terrier-like temperaments. I have thought it is because of the longhaired dogs cuddly appearance that made pet-people take them and breed for lower energy dogs that are more problem free to keep as couchpillows.

My dachs has longhaired dogs in backround (V and VI generation that I know of and probably some more that I don´t) but she is a firecracker with more spunk than most shorthairs I know though she is bred by a show breeder (who just happens to have females with local old working line pedigrees).

There is a very good reason for that in the Dachs.
The lonhair goes back to spaniel crosses and the wirehair goes back to terrier crosses.
The mini-wire can be a great little dog in earthwork.