I'm pretty new to this board so I've been doing more reading than typing, but I just have to chime in. I agree with Todd Gaster 100%. My young dog is crated (in a proper sized crate) for 6 hours while I'm at work and for 8 hours at night. Sometimes she's crated again in early evening for an hour or so while I run errands. I agree that 15 hours at a stretch is totally inappropriate. My dog is happy and healthy, and gets plenty of exersize and quality time with me. After work we exersize and sometimes she'll go back in her crate to take a nap! If it's unhealthy for her to spend more than 15 hours a day in a crate then apparently she's a danger to herself.

VanCamp here is my quote in case you missed it

Dogs are den animals, and predators Here is yours:
The den animal thing, that was dumb. Watch some video of wild dogs or wolves. No -F-ing way they spend that much time in a den, if at all. Don't know where you have been. However, everything I have, read, seen, and experienced. DOGS ARE DEN ANIMALS!

I'm not sure I see the direct link between dominance and free roam of the yard when you are not there. If you are not there, and the dog has free roam of the yard, whose yard is it? In more cases than not, we are talking about pet people who don't know how to deal with dominance issues. Yes, you can handle a dominant dog, I can, SchH3FH can...but can Joe Blow Pet Owner?

Ahhh a perfect example of two very good experenced trainers with diffrent ideas on things! Didn't you know the only thing dog trainers agree on is what the third one is doing wrong!

Sorry Captain correction but I'm feeling what Todd is saying here as far as the free roam of the yard when no one is around.

As far as the crating goes, I don't think that it is fair to make too much out of the time spent in the crate at night. How many of our house dogs just lay next to our bed all night while we sleep only getting up to re-position themselves? I think crating the dog at night gets the dog used to settling down in one area when the lights go out and its time to retire. Now as far as the rest of the day, that's debatable. Idealy, no more than 4-6 hours. For many that's impossible with work schedules. In a perfect world, sure I like the kennel or confinement in a larger area for long periods. But the crate sure does beat giving the dog too much freedom which will most likely lead to behavior or dominance problems like Todd pointed out. Of course if you train your dog into a well behaved member of the family then his crate days will be short lived hopefully.

This thread has veered off topic, and since I contributed to that I don't feel like I should close it. I'll just sharpen up a prong, put it around my neck and............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think you need some sharp-prong and electric work....LOL..
Anyway having a dog living in a crate is not the problem; of course it is a far better idea then letting the animal destroy the house etc. But the crate should then be big enough for the dog to stand freely, and have some freedom of choice on how to lay. This is only human if you are going to have this as an extendended plan for housing. Then the dog should have exersise that statisfies the dog's needs.
As far as the dog becoming master of his domain, I see where Todd is coming from with THAT point. It would stand to reason. However I still think that since this woman has a big GSD, that has no training, she should buy the video to give her a foundation on what should be done, and then seek out a reputable trainer in her area. If this dog tries to dominate her, he most likley will and we all know what that can lead to. I would use caution when working a dog that I know very little about, and know very little about dog training in general.

I know most people here agree that crating is a good tool to use in dog training. But knowing what I've seen with Buster (He could NOT walk in the beginning, just kind of drag himself around) I don't think there is a person out there that would crate him again. Even you serious Schutzund trainers. Yes I know if used correctly (which ovbviously it wasn't with Buster) it can be very useful. He has not had a problem with the basement during the day while I'm at work. (it is cooler for him too). As far as night time he sleeps in the living room on his "bed".
Going back to the original question about training, I will be buying that Obedience tape from the BB.
Thank you all for the advice (most of which I agree with). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Silly me Todd, I did forget that. Chuck has a good point I must say...were is that? Oh yea here it is

 Quote:

Of course if you train your dog into a well behaved member of the family then his crate days will be short lived hopefully.

This would be my case! My dog is more then happy to lay around until I either go to the fridge or pick up that ball. This goes for when we leave the house as well, never did have a problem, we only crated for the first 3 months at night until he was pottie trained lol. I work from home so I can always kick his ass if he thinks about trying anything. But not all of us are so lucky I guess.

Mike: I have sharpend up a few prongs and am starting a business, I'm going to call it "The Sharper Edge School of Dog Training" Would you be intrested in a job? LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Toddo-

I need to clarify. I know dogs and wolves are den animals, but they don't spent 15+ hours a day in the den unless they are pups. As adults they don't sleep in dens very much at all. It's just a lame argument and beside the point. That's what I mean bro. We all know dogs are comfortable in a crate for reasonable amounts of time.

Here is what I really think about the crate thing. As the primary method of containment, I think a kennel is better. I don't think there are any drawbacks in comparison to the crate. (I also don't think there are MANY drawbacks to a crate, unless it is overused.)

I'm still not convinced that a dog can't have free roam of a yard if there are dominance problems. Confinement for training reasons I understand. Self reward and all that, but for dominant behavior? I'm not so sure. I guess the two can go hand in hand, but there are plenty of ways to deal with it that are more direct.

This GSD in question wouldn't suffer from some time in the crate, even though he was abused earlier. I think Buster would benefit from some structured training time, like Mike said, which should include crate training. It is useful, if not overdone.

I will take the job, but only if the collar's that I can use are real sharp..........
I can't believe the day has come that Van Camp and I agree!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />