 Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: AJ Evans ]
#361881 - 05/23/2012 04:23 PM |
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Are you training everything with your helper there Katie, all 3 phases?
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: AJ Evans ]
#361882 - 05/23/2012 04:26 PM |
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....So I'm going to go to a two frisbee system and start working on reinforcing the drop it command and see if I can't improve the drop it command. Thanks!
Just to reiterate what Bob was saying here ....
What Steve said!
If the Frisbie is this dogs ultimate reward then you need another frizbie. I might even drop the frisbie playing for a while and use it ONLY for reward...that is with marker training and back chaining.
Teach the hold and out command with markers and the frisby as reward only. Only when you have consistent compliance with those two should you try with the frisbie. Even then I wouldn't toss it EVER until you get a solid hold and out with it. Putting the two together before one or the other is only partially done will only compound the situation. Every time the dog refuses an out your only reinforcing the fact that it CAN refuse. .... With marker training your using the dogs drives to get compliance.
With back chaining, your STARTING with the out/drop-it problem, and not just tossing and hoping for the best.
Of course you could go to regular two-ball (two-frisbee), keeping the excitement up, showing the second frisbee ready to toss, tossing it the instant he outs the first one.
OR you might want to do what Bob is outlining here, keeping in mind that each time the dog does not comply with the out command he perceives that it's a choice for him.
I'm very strong on Bob's method (from experience; it takes what is arguably the most-likely-to-be-a-problem link in the fetch or retrieve chain away from the excitement of the game, to where it can be taught and "rehearsed" methodically before it's linked with the rest of the chain). In this case, it also takes it away from a situation where he has now practiced non-compliance.
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Katie Finlay ]
#361883 - 05/23/2012 04:26 PM |
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IMO, a proper correction teaches dogs to be harder. I use a mix of marking training and compulsion. All of my foundation is market training.
Many dogs go into avoidance when they don't understand. I was under the impression that this dog understood. I would not have advised corrections otherwise.
I am curious as to how we determine if the dog understands the command. Obviously he doesn't fully understand the command "drop it" if he isn't complying with the command with his frisbee. But if I throw his ball, his kong, his tug toy, (and any other item) and he retrieves it and I tell him to drop it he performs the command just fine. That is what was causing my frustrations because I feel like he does know the command "drop it" it's just that he was not complying with this one toy.
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: AJ Evans ]
#361884 - 05/23/2012 04:29 PM |
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IMO, a proper correction teaches dogs to be harder. I use a mix of marking training and compulsion. All of my foundation is market training.
Many dogs go into avoidance when they don't understand. I was under the impression that this dog understood. I would not have advised corrections otherwise.
I am curious as to how we determine if the dog understands the command. .
You will know if/when you have taught it yourself and see compliance.
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#361885 - 05/23/2012 08:04 PM |
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Also, "That is what was causing my frustrations" ..... the training method formerly used might have linked handler frustration with harsh correction.
As you said, you don't know; you weren't there. But when you teach it yourself, you will know. 
If I feel frustration, I pretty much view that as a signal that I should back up. I'm usually right. If not, I have done no damage. 
Let the trainer examine himself when the dog makes a mistake or does not understand the exercise, or fails in obedience, and let him ask “Where am I at fault?”
- Max von Stephanitz
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#361886 - 05/23/2012 08:05 PM |
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....OR you might want to do what Bob is outlining here, keeping in mind that each time the dog does not comply with the out command he perceives that it's a choice for him.
I'm very strong on Bob's method (from experience; it takes what is arguably the most-likely-to-be-a-problem link in the fetch or retrieve chain away from the excitement of the game, to where it can be taught and "rehearsed" methodically before it's linked with the rest of the chain). In this case, it also takes it away from a situation where he has now practiced non-compliance.
I may have to give this a try. Though I will have to teach him the hold command because we've never worked on that one before. And I like the idea of using the frisbee as a reward because it is basically his highest value treat possible. But if I am using the frisbee as the reward for the training session how do I retreive the frisbee after I've given it to him as the reward without the drop it command? I can't wait on him to get bored of the frisbee because that never happens.
Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/23/2012 04:36 PM)
Edit reason: fix bracket problem
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: AJ Evans ]
#361887 - 05/23/2012 08:05 PM |
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I'll weigh in while you wait for Katie...
This SEEMS (IMHO) like not an understanding issue as far as the command goes, as much as a compliance issue, and that would be the reason for the correction. In that regard, Katie is spot-on.
However, as several posters have recognized, your dog DOES NOT understand that the game is not over when he outs the frisbee. The compliance in him is being overrun by his drive for the frisbee, which is not all that uncommon.
The game of two-ball (or frisbee, in this case) is good for teaching the dog to accept the next toss as a reward for outing or retrieving/recalling. Once you accomplish this, that frisbee will be the highest-value reward FOR THIS DOG that you could ever imagine, and may come in handy in other areas of training complex behaviors
Sadie |
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#361888 - 05/23/2012 04:37 PM |
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You will know if/when you have taught it yourself and see compliance.
I guess that is what I am confused about. I did marker train him with the "drop it" command. The other trainers didn't do that. And he is compliant with me with every thing except his frisbee.
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#361889 - 05/23/2012 04:40 PM |
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However, as several posters have recognized, your dog DOES NOT understand that the game is not over when he outs the frisbee. The compliance in him is being overrun by his drive for the frisbee, which is not all that uncommon.
I feel like that is exactly what Aragon is doing.
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Re: Teaching the Drop It Command
[Re: steve strom ]
#361891 - 05/23/2012 04:47 PM |
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Are you training everything with your helper there Katie, all 3 phases?
Once or twice a week, yes. But for the majority, no.
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