Quote: Duane Hull

Mr. Finley;

What is your opinion of the WUSV's emphasis on extreme angulation in its breed standard, which was adopted by the AKC and is one of the main criteria in judging conformation in GSDs?

Do you feel that the degree of angulation has an effect on the length of time that a GSD can stay engaged in extreme physical activity?

Fine, but what about this question?

 Quote: Greg Meyer

 Quote: Charles Finley

My choice for basketball players would come from black men. My choice for accountants would come from white men. My choice for Soccer players would come from English men. My choice for ping pong players would come from Chinese men. My choice for chess players would come from Russian men. My choice for Hebrew readers would come from Jewish men. My choice for marathon runners would come from African men. Working line is no different than a racial stereotype.

Well, this thread just took an interesting twist.

OK, since I'm definitely out of my element in this discussion, I'll go back into the stands now and continue watching this interesting show.

Carry on.

http://www.hiyoooo.com/

 Quote: Katie Finlay

If you read Stephanitz's book, you'll actually find that the German Shepherd was first and foremost a show dog. It wasn't until years into the breed they started being used for protection. Therefore, while the foundation stock were herding dogs, they were never really selectively bred for these qualities.

I'm a big fan of the Captain's too!

Just to clarify a bit, waaaaaay back then the "dog shows" were a very different kind than people see today. They were much more about what the breed was intended for, with demonstrations, than how they look. Take it from Captain von Stephanitz himself:

 Quote:

"The most striking feature of the correctly bred German Shepherd are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity, and hardness."

~Captain Max von Stephanitz

I would lay off "the captain" worship as well. The Captain and his buds closed the foundation breed book on a bunch of highly inbred dogs way too early much as every AKC breed recently recognized has today. It's always about money and control. A handful of breeders want to start a new breed but want to control the foundation stock in their hands for the money and glory. The German Shepherd was no different and was based on too few dogs in the beginning which has led to many of the health problems we see today in the GSD. The GSD would have been better served by leaving the breed book open for another 15-20 years to get additional genetics into the breed. The dogs the captain bred look nothing like todays GSD and are closer to the Malinois in physical features.

Thanks, but I think I will continue to get my advice and inspirations from the Captain rather than you. I find his book as well as his dedication to the breed to be quite admirable.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were so racist you even consider canine bloodlines go be the same thing.

And there's no worshipping of "the captain" going on here. As far as I'm concerned he did nothing but pick dogs to run around a show ring. Which again has nothing to do with herding. He never worked dogs.

Actually, Capt Max despised the show ring or 'Fancy' as he termed it. He believed any breed judged strictly on ring results was doomed. That has been proven time and time again. Unfortunately, many current GSD breeders are intent on re-proving that theorem.

His intent was to preserve the characteristics working shepherds of the region and prepare them for jobs in a post-agrarian world.

I found a website with a pretty fair number of Stephanitz quotes. It's interesting how often 'work' or 'working' appears in those quotes.
http://conifercanine.blogspot.com/2011/01/max-v-stephanitz-quotes.html

Some others ...
work is an indispensable necessity for the shepherd dog

The most striking feature of the correctly bred German Shepherd are firmness of nerves, attentiveness, unshockability, tractability, watchfulness, reliability and incorruptibility together with courage, fighting tenacity, and hardness.

Take this trouble for me: Make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life long for that aim.

Utility is the true criterion of beauty

The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, this must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs

From an **old** Leerburg thread ...
http://leerburg.com/webboard/printthread.php?topic_id=6813

(also interesting on that old thread is the M/F mix of the posters vs today)


Another set of quotes and an early breed history. Sieger shows were not much of a beauty pagent back then.
http://maxvs.blogspot.com/

Edited by Charlie Snyder (03/14/2013 12:12 PM)
Edit reason: eta another set of quotes.

 Quote: Duane Hull

 Quote: Duane Hull

Mr. Finley;

What is your opinion of the WUSV's emphasis on extreme angulation in its breed standard, which was adopted by the AKC and is one of the main criteria in judging conformation in GSDs?

Do you feel that the degree of angulation has an effect on the length of time that a GSD can stay engaged in extreme physical activity?

Fine, but what about this question?

Charles, I find that the interpretation of the book is skewed because people forget it was written in such an early time period.

Stephanitz himself states he doesn't like dealing with the dogs, let alone working them himself. The breeding stock was chosen upon looks of the standard when they gathered in a show circle and Stephanitz picked the dogs he liked. Working trials were not held until some 40 years after this, I believe.

But I feel like this is all beside the point.

Working lines means to everyone but you that the dog has a pedigree made up of dogs selected for working performance and the characteristics that are required for those duties.

Show lines means to everyone but you that the dog has a pedigree made up of dogs that were selected for conformation and showing potential and success and the characteristics required for those duties.

It's really not hard to understand.

 Quote: Katie Finlay

Stephanitz himself states he doesn't like dealing with the dogs, let alone working them himself. The breeding stock was chosen upon looks of the standard when they gathered in a show circle and Stephanitz picked the dogs he liked. Working trials were not held until some 40 years after this, I believe.

I have never seen any quote by him, or found when reading his book, a statement that indicated the didn't like dealing with the dogs. Do you have any links or page references? As a matter of fact, he states that:

 Quote:

Show me your dog, and I will tell you what manner of man you are.

That wouldn't make much sense if he didn't like dealing with dogs, unless he had an extremely unflattering opinion of himself.


As I stated earlier, the "shows" back then were more like working trials than what you know as a dog show today.

Every quote I can find of his demonstrates his love of the working dog.