Quote:

I don't want to freak her out yet, but eventually we will simulate that I am actually being injured by the helper and see what happens.

Please video tape it and post it. Please.

Is this guy for real?! You are a fool & a poor excuse for an owner. You don't deserve that sweet dog. Give her away to some family that will appreciate her sweet nature for what it is.

And the schmucks that you are training with....well I have some words for them...but this is a family forum. Lets just leave it at.... they LOVE taking candy from babies. Sad for this poor dog. <SIGH>

How is it that this guy's posts go on page after page when he's proven to the forum members that he doesn't care for our answers about how he's going to ruin his dog?!

 Quote: Bob Scott

How is it that this guy's posts go on page after page when he's proven to the forum members that he doesn't care for our answers about how he's going to ruin his dog?!

You know. Bob. An advice-shopping O.P., and people who are concerned for the dog and keep hoping they will find a way to say it so the advice-shopper hears it.

JMO.

Jeffrey, your dog is too scared to do protection work. You don't know how to read a dog and neither do your trainers. You don't need to find a video camera. Someone there has a phone.

You have a dog incapable of doing this work and if you keep doing it she will eventually break and either shut down or start biting anything and everything all the time out of fear.

We know this because we've seen it done multiple times. You are not trying anything that hasn't been done before with other dogs, including ones like yours. We're telling you what's going to happen because we KNOW what's going to happen.

This is just irritating now. You have the wrong dog for this job. Love her for what she is or get rid of her and get a dog suited for the work.

Thought I would provide an update.

The intent of this thread was to search out for creative ways in which we could train Heidi as she appeared to lose her drive in protection training. I had not witnessed it in person, but did finally make it up there to see it myself.

We changed locations for her training and now, even without me there, she has gone back to having a high suspicion and biting quickly without command when the helper runs up to her with the stick. She still remains a very friendly dog with everyone, even strangers, right after the training session has ended. Additionally, she continues with her training with great enthusiasm. The purpose of this thread was to come up with such ideas in order to see if we could get Heidi to re-enage. After a discussion with a local military/police k9 trainer he gave some important insight. As suspected, Heidi got comfortable, she simply did not feel the need to be suspicious and we didn't push her to that point. The question was should we? For his purposes, yes. Dogs that show hesitation when pressure is added are generally useless to him, but for the home, if pressure is added, it should be done slowly. Many of the breeders he deals with provide solid genetic lines and these problems tend not to arise. His advice, no need to force the bite with a whip or crack, but continue the foundation work and stop the moment the dog shows any aversion, at the point the dog shouldn't go any further. If a solid foundation is achieved why not slowly ramp up the pressures in a manner consistent with protection training and once again, stop if the dog shows any aversion. Obviously I failed to describe the problem properly because his impression of Heidi was quite the opposite. Within the first few bites he couldn't possibly understand why anyone would say stop her training, she is too fearful/scared, or not proper for this line of training. She has a solid bite with enthusiasm, and shows no signs of fear or aversion to the training. Granted, he said her suspicion could use improvement, but not worry about it for now, just keep going to the trainer and do what your doing to improve the foundation.

While I do appreciate that many if not most of the members on here have an extensive background in this type of training, I have come to a few realizations. First, more than likely I am failing to adequately describe our dog's behavior in a textual format. Second, diagnosing canine behavior over a web-forum is about as productive as diagnosing anything else without actually being present and witnessing the symptoms and performing any relevant tests in person. What I do find shocking, is how quickly this community continues to promote getting rid of a dog without such first hand-knowledge. I am sure again that many, if not most of you believe otherwise. For these reasons, this will be my last post on this forum. Best of luck.

"Rehome her before you damage her" and "love her for what she is or find someone who will" are VERY different from what you are saying.

You came with your agenda, advice-shopping. It was a waste of everyone's time.

JMHO.




" .... this will be my last post on this forum. Best of luck."

Good luck to Heidi. I mean that with all my heart.

 Quote: steve strom

Hey Jeffrey, replace boredom with the word avoidance. At this time, she can't handle more pressure. But really, you're incorrectly trying to describe something you've never seen, so I think theres really nothing you can gain from trying to guess whats going on with her.

Don't know if you read that or not. I thought you'd be a dot the i and cross the t kinda guy, but maybe you missed it.

 Quote:

After a discussion with a local military/police k9 trainer he gave some important insight. As suspected, Heidi got comfortable, she simply did not feel the need to be suspicious and we didn't push her to that point. The question was should we? For his purposes, yes. Dogs that show hesitation when pressure is added are generally useless to him, but for the home, if pressure is added, it should be done slowly. Many of the breeders he deals with provide solid genetic lines and these problems tend not to arise. His advice, no need to force the bite with a whip or crack, but continue the foundation work and stop the moment the dog shows any aversion, at the point the dog shouldn't go any further. If a solid foundation is achieved why not slowly ramp up the pressures in a manner consistent with protection training and once again, stop if the dog shows any aversion.

If your still reading this, even though your never going to post again. Think about something for a minute. The impression you gave was the opposite of not trying to force her to bite. It sounded to me like your plan was to push her so hard she wasn't going to see any other option and would bite out of fear.

With your new, better understanding and big time trainer, ask him why you would stop as soon as she shows any aversion? To me, that sounds like either a problem in the training, you're teaching her to avoid and that will make it stop, or maybe, that's why she's not the right dog for what your doing?

And comfortable is completely out of context here. It has no bearing on anything you're talking about.

feel like i'm replying to a brick wall considering the OP might not be responding but nevertheless . . .

jeff , those who have taken the time to respond with advice have no agenda other that what they honestly feel is best for the dog and your relationship with her . their comments were offered based on the " textual " insights and observations you yourself have given , and in fact , i do believe a video recording had been requested , which you were either unwilling or unable to do .


and please , could you do one more ( video ) post ? like steve , i have always wanted to see what would happen when someone stages like a real attack to see what their dog would do . no e-sarc here , i've really wanted to see that .

 Quote: ian bunbury

feel like i'm replying to a brick wall considering the OP might not be responding ...

I believe that people will read this thread and maybe get something from it, regardless.