"Waiting her out" is another cue.



"Any time we cross a street or head toward an area that she doesn't have unlimited access to"

You said she always stops when you stop, except at the curb.

If she stops in the middle of the block on the way to an area "she doesn't have unlimited access to," but not at the curb, then the logic of her failing to sit because of wanting to get there and increased drive falls apart.

 Quote: Duane Hull

I was hoping that Bob and Candi would also coninue this conversation, as well. I wouldn't mind hearing what Anne thinks either.

Or anyone else, for that matter.

Just unburying this invitation.

I'm a fan of the "waiting them out" school of training. If the dog knows that the sit is expected, simply wait for the sit before proceeding. They will eventually figure out that its faster to get what they want by complying than by not complying. And that's the magic I want--a dog that chooses self control.

Example: my dogs know that sitting is required while I prepare their meals. The youngest, Cinco, still sometimes wants to break the sit and come investigate, hop around doing a happy dance in anticipation of the meal. When he does, I simply stop preparing the food and stand still. When he sees that his actions are not producing food, he "remembers" what he's supposed to do and returns to the sit. I don't say a word.

He learns that the speed at which the food appears is up to him--not me.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"Any time we cross a street or head toward an area that she doesn't have unlimited access to"

You said she always stops when you stop, except at the curb.

If she stops in the middle of the block on the way to an area "she doesn't have unlimited access to," but not at the curb, then the logic of her failing to sit because of wanting to get there and increased drive falls apart.

She's not at heel in the middle of the block, and leash pressure takes over. After crossing the street, she's released to check things out. She will not pull to get at something, and if she tries, she gets a "no pulling" and/or a correction. I sometimes get a dirty look, but rarely is she disobedient when leash pressure is involved.

I wish I had a video camera. This would be so much easier if you could see what I am trying to describe.

Sorry...got sidetracked with a phone call after I typed this...

Duane my female is VERY high drive & does & wants to do everything at 100mph.

She is like your dog in the sense that she is a reactive. She is also a VERY, VERY, hard tempermented scary smart dog. She can be very manipulative if given the chance. And she wants what she wants NOW! But the way for her to get what she wants is THROUGH me.

I don’t get involved in trying to rationalize what she is thinking & why she is doing something……unless there is a physical reason for the behavior, or I am giving mixed signals or confusing my dog in some way by not making it clear what it is I want. I don’t care how high her drive, low her drive or how crazy excited she is (just an excuse) to get to the field or anywhere else…..it is my way PERIOD.

I deal with the kind of thing you are dealing with by not allowing the dog to get what she wants until I get what I want…and I can be more stubborn then she is.

My dogs also know to sit when I stop walking, whether it is when formally heeling or just taking a walk. I would stand at that curb as long as I had to until she sat. If she truly knows what it expected of her & you are not giving her any unconscious cues to step off, then I would turn around walk the other way & then back to the curb & expect a sit & do it again & yet again. She would NOT cross that street until she gave me what I want, a couple of times without having to discuss it each time we got to the curb. I would do that every time I walked her until it was really a clear automatic reflex in her mind that she sits at the curb always. Absolute consistency & vigilance on your part that you are not giving cues to her in any way contrary to what you are asking.

Not sure if this helps or not. I marker train & use corrections when needed. I don’t make any excuses for my dogs or myself when training.

Anne;

Thanks. Through my conversations with Steve and Connie, I was beginning to deduce exactly what you shared, and you have given me a procedure that seems very logical. I'd tried waiting her out many times with no improvement, but she always seems to grasp something when I circle her and bring her back to the sticking point, kind of like a redirect.

I'm also will turn the dog around & walk the other way & stop & just stand there with the dog sitting. Kind of like a timeout before I turn around & head back to the problem spot.

Too bad Zasha can't 'talk' to Sadie & clue her in on how many times she has tried to 'buck the system' to zero success.

LOL...Right now she's insisting tht I refill the Dogzilla ball again.

"My dogs also know to sit when I stop walking, whether it is when formally heeling or just taking a walk. I would stand at that curb as long as I had to until she sat. .... I would do that every time I walked her until it was really a clear automatic reflex in her mind that she sits at the curb always. Absolute consistency & vigilance on your part that you are not giving cues to her in any way contrary to what you are asking."


Like Tracy, I'm a big fan of this "I have all day, Bucko" method.

And if the many cues and hints that I use at the beginning of "curb sit" training were faded too fast, this is a perfect way to return a cue (stand there and wait) until the behavior is solid.

The curb sit is a command that I use a pile of cues with, and that the dog pretty much can't fail because of the gradual withdrawing of them. I don't want to fade them before the behavior is very solid (that is, until the dog is doing it "automatically").

As I think Steve said, a reminder. I don't withdraw the reminders before the dog is doing it automatically.

Impatience is pbly a vice, also. On this evenings' trips to potty, I stood completely motionless and gave no cues, and didn't have to wait more than a second or two. I realized that I probably don't wait long enough before giving a cue or a verbal correction.

Connie; I typically try to remove reminders from OB behaviors as soon as possible, so they won't become a crutch for the dog, but you have reminded me that it may be necessary to keep them longer for certain complex or problem behaviors.