Just a quick follow up:

Went to class today and had an amazing trainer. He saw me working with food and asked, "are you teaching with food?". I was thinking, oh great not this again about corrections being best. Well, the trainer said its the best way to reward positively with food and asked if I heard of Michael Ellis. I was so happy and had such a great experience today. I have to get the full scoop on the trainer but he is into competition and seems to really know his stuff. He knows Michael Ellis methods and says its 95% of the way he teaches which works for me.

Jagger did amazing. About 30 dogs there and he kept engaged with me most the time and followed a lot of OB commands. He choked here and there but I would say was about 75%. He wasnt sharp like you see in my video from page 1 but I was still very pleased. For his protection work he gave barks and growls also and great bites.

I dont want to get off topic but my point here is that the OB was awesome and so much less stressful that by the end the bite work really shined. Before the OB stressed him out in a new environment and the bite work was gone at the end because he lost drive at the first half.

Sorry but I am like a school girl today and super happy about my Jaggers performance. He had a great day and is just a baby in the class but rocking his OB and really giving me good engagement. When he was stressed he would look at me and I just kept marking it with food reward.

Back chaining also helps to remember the chain much better. I had to do that 10 part behavior chain with my dog Bindi. The benefit for her is she works toward a behavior she knows. You teach the last first, then the next to last, etc. It worked great and she remembered everything well. You can also memorize chunks of text that way too.
Love sharon empson and her pups bindi cody and terra

Sounds like a fantastic day today. Fantastic!

Just a bit more clarification on your question here.
"I am confused as what to say the moment I "out" him. I want to mark "yes" for letting go but thats also the mark I use which offers him a bite on the tug.

You do mark the out when you want to give another bite as a reward or you can toss in the (occasional ob command) befoer another out, mark, reward.
The only time you mark the bite on a tug is if he's earned it with a behavior. Sit, out, heel, etc.
For just drive work all you do is play the game with him. Tease with the tug, make him miss a few times and then let him get it. You want to be moving it away from him a bit when you want him to have it. You shouldn't move into him when you want him to have it. He has to lunge out for it.
As one trainer often says
The rabbit doesn't not jump into the dog's mouth. The dog has to lunge for the rabbit.
the Ellis DVD "The Power of Playing Tug With Your Dog" is an excellent one to follow for obedience for the tug.
One of the things I really like about the Ellis DVDs is he shows a lot of beginners making mistakes and explains the whys and hows of the mistakes and getting them correct. Beginner or expert, I think we've all seen ourselves in these "mistakes" at one time or another.

I have to watch the tug video again. I remember all that stuff but I am still confused.

I just need to know how to mark the out but also after that mark how do I get OB? If I use "yes" on the out that means he gets to bite it again. If I use "good" that makes more sense to me but as Connie said that my bridge has to be to the same command I am holding duration for so that means "good" cant be used as a mark for the "out" then have it lead into OB which are different tasks.

Its been a few months since watching the tug video so I need to go back and maybe I will pick up on these things.

Bob, you mentioned a clear start and stop to our work. Yes I do that. "want to work" and typically I involve the touch pad so when I get it out that makes it obvious. "all done" is a hand full of food reward and thats it.

Thanks guys

The actual words you use are not important as long as you are clear in how they are used.
Most folks use "Yes" to mark the actual behavior. "Good" is the bridge to tell the dog keep doing what your doing.
If you trained a dog to believe that "Popcorn" is a marker then it would work.
It's the consistency of using the that mean a reward is coming OR keep doing what your doing. It's either for a marker or for a bridge. The same word can't be used for both. THAT will confuse the dog.
I've watched the Ellis DVDs I have over and over again. I see something new each time or understand just a little better each time.

deleted duplicate

Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/10/2013 10:57 AM)
Edit reason: deleted self

 Quote: Brian Drake

I just need to know how to mark the out but also after that mark how do I get OB? If I use "yes" on the out that means he gets to bite it again. If I use "good" that makes more sense to me but as Connie said that my bridge has to be to the same command I am holding duration for so that means "good" cant be used as a mark for the "out" then have it lead into OB which are different tasks.

Brian, I think you should listen to Duane and Bob on this. You and I were talking at cross purposes on that.

(I've had communication problems for a couple of weeks, so I'm sure it was me ... All I can say is, thank goodness for PMs saying "what the heck are you talking about" )

Brian;

I conversed with Connie, and we cleared up some confusion on the bridge. You can use "good" both as a bridge and for duration. Just make sure you are clear what you are bridging so as not to confuse the dog.

If you would do a little more reinforcement of the mark/rebite, you will soon not even need a bridge for the "out". Watch some of the other dogs at the club; they already know the game. After they are rewarded with a tug, they get an out. Then they focus intently on the handler for the next command. They will even start to offer if a command doesn't come quickly enough.

Duane:

I can out him on 1 command no issue at all. I guess from there I will just out and not have to mark in when my goal is OB to follow. If my goal is to teach the out then I will just do a separate game of tug marking the out and just going back into a game of tug.

I think I see what you are saying. Maybe I am confusing the 2 different games here. 1 game is to learn the out by marking it and making the tug go dead etc and restarting the game quickly for fast outs and pausing for the sticky outs. The 2nd game is using the tug for OB after the out is taught so that I can out then ask for OB and when he performs the OB use my marker "yes" to bite the tug for reward.

I hope that is right.

That's closer, Brian. And I would concentrate on that "out" first... that is part of a solid foundation.

And don't forget to gleen as much as possible from the handlers where you train. You will see how they use tug for reward, and pbly not all will be using verbal markers.

When you out him, he should see him primed for the next command (or a mark/release to bite again).

ETA: When you are working on the out/rebite, one of your goals should be to improve his motivation, as Bob said earlier. Follow Bob's advice on how to handle the tug to maximize your dog's drive. Your dog needs to be so motivated for tug that when you let go, he pushes the toy back into your chest.

Edited by Duane Hull (11/10/2013 02:12 PM)
Edit reason: eta