 Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Kristin Muntz ]
#389624 - 03/20/2014 01:25 PM |
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Regarding your own dog, calling him back reliably off a chase like the one you are describing is good obedience in drive. Hard to say what is motivating the dog at that point, and when he would be too keyed up to respond to your command, without knowing your dog, but if you know when he's going past the threshold, that's the important part.
it might be the training and also genetic because pits where breed so the idiots who fight them can be in there in the ¨ring¨and still be able to handle the dogs break the grip and then restart the fight with out being bitten themselves, that may be a good gene to have in a protection dog maybe what do you think?
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Jose Silva ]
#389626 - 03/20/2014 01:32 PM |
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Agree and disagree. I can call my dog off of any chase as well. However (and she is new to bitework), "outing" when she is engaged with the agitator is a lot more stressful for her, and she doesn't comply immediately. The state of drive that a dog is in when engaged in fight drive is much different than the drive your dog is in when you allow him to run off the other dogs.
FWIW, if you are training a ppd (or any working dog), allowing self-gratifying behavior such as reacting thus toward other people or animals is non-productive, and can even be counter-productive. The goal of most handlers is to neutralize the dog to such stimuli.
Sadie |
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#389628 - 03/20/2014 01:41 PM |
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Agree and disagree. I can call my dog off of any chase as well. However (and she is new to bitework), "outing" when she is engaged with the agitator is a lot more stressful for her, and she doesn't comply immediately. The state of drive that a dog is in when engaged in fight drive is much different than the drive your dog is in when you allow him to run off the other dogs.
FWIW, if you are training a ppd (or any working dog), allowing self-gratifying behavior such as reacting thus toward other people or animals is non-productive, and can even be counter-productive. The goal of most handlers is to neutralize the dog to such stimuli.
Is the drive of the dog affected when you train him to neutralize those stimuli?
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Jose Silva ]
#389629 - 03/20/2014 01:52 PM |
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delete duplicate
Sadie |
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Jose Silva ]
#389630 - 03/20/2014 01:52 PM |
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No. With today's mostly positive or balanced training schemes, the dogs look forward to the bitework, and when they sense that it is coming, their drives start escalating involuntarily (Pavlov's salivating dog). Desensitizing a dog to external stimuli does not affect that. As a matter of fact, that is the whole purpose of Schutzhund (currently IPO); the dog must show that he has discipline and self-control in all phases of the work. It is a temperament test originally designed for the GSD, and it is considered favorable for the dog to be well-balanced and aloof until called on.
Sadie |
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Jose Silva ]
#389639 - 03/20/2014 11:26 PM |
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As mentioned in a post above most dogs will bite. What is always a HUGE gamble is the dog that will stay in the fight when the "bad guy" is willing to keep coming forward. That's when the VAST majority of dogs will bale out of self preservation.
This was my point when I talked about most Schutzhund trained dogs wont stay in a real fight with someone. That's in the dog's genetics and can't be truly taught.
Even the dog that is barking and snarling behind a fence,in a car,in a house may be a great deterant because of a great threat display doesn't mean it will fight to protect you.
You think no one will advance on a snapping, snarling dog. What about someone that's strung out on PCP or whatever drug?
MOST pet owners that claim their dog will "protect them" hopefully will never have to find out because it will probably go really bad for them.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#389641 - 03/20/2014 11:37 PM |
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As mentioned in a post above most dogs will bite. What is always a HUGE gamble is the dog that will stay in the fight when the "bad guy" is willing to keep coming forward. That's when the VAST majority of dogs will bale out of self preservation.
This was my point when I talked about most Schutzhund trained dogs wont stay in a real fight with someone. That's in the dog's genetics and can't be truly taught.
Even the dog that is barking and snarling behind a fence,in a car,in a house may be a great deterant because of a great threat display doesn't mean it will fight to protect you.
You think no one will advance on a snapping, snarling dog. What about someone that's strung out on PCP or whatever drug?
MOST pet owners that claim their dog will "protect them" hopefully will never have to find out because it will probably go really bad for them.
AMEN
MY DOGS...MY RULES
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Duane Hull ]
#389643 - 03/21/2014 02:17 AM |
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No. With today's mostly positive or balanced training schemes, the dogs look forward to the bitework, and when they sense that it is coming, their drives start escalating involuntarily (Pavlov's salivating dog). Desensitizing a dog to external stimuli does not affect that. As a matter of fact, that is the whole purpose of Schutzhund (currently IPO); the dog must show that he has discipline and self-control in all phases of the work. It is a temperament test originally designed for the GSD, and it is considered favorable for the dog to be well-balanced and aloof until called on.
great thanks
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Bob Scott ]
#389644 - 03/21/2014 02:20 AM |
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As mentioned in a post above most dogs will bite. What is always a HUGE gamble is the dog that will stay in the fight when the "bad guy" is willing to keep coming forward. That's when the VAST majority of dogs will bale out of self preservation.
This was my point when I talked about most Schutzhund trained dogs wont stay in a real fight with someone. That's in the dog's genetics and can't be truly taught.
Even the dog that is barking and snarling behind a fence,in a car,in a house may be a great deterant because of a great threat display doesn't mean it will fight to protect you.
You think no one will advance on a snapping, snarling dog. What about someone that's strung out on PCP or whatever drug?
MOST pet owners that claim their dog will "protect them" hopefully will never have to find out because it will probably go really bad for them.
I wonder if that gene its what those suckers exploit on pitbulls so they fight to death on the ¨ring¨, because as you said thats something you cant possibly teach right?
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Re: Bandog the solution to protection dogs?
[Re: Jose Silva ]
#389645 - 03/21/2014 08:55 AM |
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From what I've always read and heard, the bull breeds were originally selectively bred to hang on to the noses of bulls and boars at all peril to themselves (hence the squashed faces, which allow the dogs to breathe while locked on). The tenacity and jaw strength made for good fighting dogs, and that's how they ended up taking over the pits. These are the traits that pit bull breeders are trying to preserve. Some are ethical and some are not.
Sadie |
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