Quote: Duane Hull

If you want to burn energy to help manage the dog, you can start marker training as soon as the groundwork training allows.

Take dog to large, fenced back yard.
Dog offers to play.
Rather than toss ball immediately, command "sit" (or hand gesture or lure, depending on which stage of training you're in).
As soon as dog complies, mark and toss ball (or just toss, if you're not marker training).

When dog returns with ball and offers to play again, repeat. If dog doesn't immediately return, let him play for a spell. When he is ready to engage again, he will bring you the ball, as he is learning that that's how you want to engage. Do not cave if he drops the ball and tries to tussle. Get the ball and have him sit.

Repeat until dog has had enough.

If the dog tries to play but will not fetch and is intent on nipping, put him away. He will need an outlet for his energy, and eventually will learn that being pushy does not get the desired results.

Absolutely BANG-ON Correct !!! Exercising its MIND will tire out a dog Much Faster than only Physical activity ALONE Training & Working him on EVERY obedience command of your choice will DRAIN Energy QUICKER than just a lot of Running Around.

Today we worked on sit, down, release for about 5 or so minutes and he is now passed out. At below zero wind chills, we just didn't get a very long walk in. My face almost froze and I was very bundled up and his poor little foot pads were cherry red and he was starting to shiver.

So, do any of you use jackets/blankets of some sort? He has so little hair, I am not sure if I should try something like that.

 Quote: Ria Neubauer

Today we worked on sit, down, release for about 5 or so minutes and he is now passed out. At below zero wind chills, we just didn't get a very long walk in. My face almost froze and I was very bundled up and his poor little foot pads were cherry red and he was starting to shiver.

So, do any of you use jackets/blankets of some sort? He has so little hair, I am not sure if I should try something like that.

During the winter here in San Francisco (i.e., July, ha-ha) my new rescue Dobie needed a warm coat or thick sweater if we were walking in the shade or fog or wind -- She was also 20 pounds underweight when I first brought Adobe home from the sanctuary in 100+ degree Southern California, which lack of any insulation added to her chilliness while exposed ... Even now at 60 pounds, she still gets shivery whenever temps drop to 60 degrees here! Boots are not needed in our climate, but they do sell them on Leerburg (hint-hint, wink-wink, nudge-nudge)

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

sorry I really don't get the jump to dominant dog collar and prongs from a dog we all including the owner agree is not dominant and just wants, is begging, for some interaction.

seriously?????

this is just so screwy, weird, thoughtless and bizarre imo.

The DD collar is not always used for the full correction(hanging) that a dominant aggressive dog might get.

With it's tight fit and increased control of the head it works great as just a normal slip type collar. It's kind of a step between a flat collar and a pinch. It gives feedback to the dog without overstimulating it like a prong collar can.

Honestly, in this dogs case I think a prong might be overboard as well. You say he is reacting to a pop on a flat collar? The prong might be a bit much and unfair to use if he is a softer boy. I would probably be willing to try either a well fitted DD collar or a chain martingale(half-check) if he were mine. You can find the martingales with a chain at the big box stores. I prefer the ones with a buckle. Once I find the prefect length I don't have to fiddle with it anymore.

 Quote: Ria Neubauer

One more thing to address: I know several have mentioned my inexperience. My thought on this is, how will I get experience if I don't do this? I do not sense any aggression whatsoever in this dog, although I may have used that word. As I spend more time learning, I see more and more, he is spoiled and untrained and strong willed, but does not have a mean bone in his body. I have no fear of him anymore, now that I realize the why behind his behaviors and have armed myself with some knowledge and tools. But if I ever sense that there is something beyond my scope, I will immediately get professional help. Hope that reassures you guys.

You seem like a strong confident person. You will have so much fun with this dog once you are on the same page. Really looking forward to hearing about how you guys progress.

As far as wearing him out have you run into any of the articles on clicker work? It gets their brain going real well. Most dogs love to learn tricks and they reinforce appropriate interaction. They also help the dog to be more accepting of touching them in different areas.

A jacket would a great idea. We've used them on underweight foster Boxers before so they didn't burn calories to stay warm. We also got boots for a Boxer who was a tenderfoot so he could walk on the rocks. I might just try paw wax in a cold area.

 Quote: Peter Cavallaro

Cathy my frustration in these things is how quickly the self confessed newb, as we all were at some point, escalates in a matter of days to imo last resort tactics for last resort dogs.

be nice to just once maybe see someone post about how they spent months doing motivational engagement work, went to a club perhaps and employed the experience of proven competent people, built a bind over time, had stated goals and a training plan with milestones, had honest evaluations.......

but nope, more likely to see, I have no skills and my dog did this twice so how do I fit one of them prong collar thingy's or where do I buy a DD collar, which is the best brand of e-collar......

you know, it is just disappointing.

the joy for me in owning a dog IS the interaction, IS the light bulb moments, IS knowing my dog had fun and developed with me, solutions were found without resorting to brute force....

guess I am just different and wrong.

Not wrong. My story is very similar to the idealistic one you posted, with one notable exception. I adopted a mature dog with issues. All of my training was motivational, and she bonded with me and showed an unparalleled willingness to train. However, being independent most of her life, she would blow off commands at her own choosing. I had her evaluated by a pro of 35+ years (who is the TD of the club I'm now in), and he suggested a prong for corrections...NOT COMPULSION. It made all of the difference, and made our bond stronger, as the commands were no longer an option and she was clear about my expectations. I do all I can to let her be a dog, but there are times when obedience is not optional.

Most of us don't live in a wide open area such as you. Almost everyone here lives in area that is more densely populated than you're used to, and compliance with verbal commands can be a life-safety issue, or it can mean preventing an issue that could get your dog removed from your home. Prong corrections are an effective way to reinforce commands, just as corporal punishment can be an effective means of reinforcing rules within your human family.

The escalation you see in newbs is largely because most of them come to us after thay already have a problem. Many get encouraged by finding out how many tools and techniques are available to help them. Do some of them stray down the wrong path? Sure, but many find options they can live with. The typical newb does not come here before they get a dog, so we rarely have a chance to advocate for shaping the dog that you want. Most of what is here is dealing with the dog you already have.

"The typical newb does not come here before they get a dog, so we rarely have a chance to advocate for shaping the dog that you want. Most of what is here is dealing with the dog you already have."

In addition, most of it is dealing with a problem that already been habituated and usually exacerbated. Often the situation is that os a small home and a family with kids.

Every regular poster here wishes that we had the luxury of helping to match people with dogs and then shaping that dog.

 Quote: Duane Hull

I adopted a mature dog with issues -- All of my training was motivational...

Yes, most dogs which are adopted after the baby puppy stage of development frequently come with at least some unappreciated ingrained "bad" habits that need to be unlearned (or at least re-purposed into desired behaviors) and the sooner the better -- Virtually all dog training is done using a collar & leash during the Learning Phase, including "Positive Motivation Only" lessons (which just about everyone everywhere is into now for good reason) ... Non-punitive marker & reward based training can be done with a dog who's wearing a DD collar, or a Prong collar, and an E-Collar (operant conditioning does not preclude maintaining fail-safe control over a K9 trainee during "school time" even in a small indoor space)

 Quote: Duane Hull

However, being independent most of her life, she would blow off commands at her own choosing. I had her evaluated by a pro of 35+ years (who is the TD of the club I'm now in), and he suggested a prong for corrections...NOT COMPULSION. It made all of the difference...as the commands were no longer an option and she was clear about my expectations (there are times when obedience is not optional).

Yes, a collar & leash are used to Communicate Physically with the dog, in addition to Verbal Commands and valuable rewards (as a means of guidance for leading it into realizing what you want to have happen) -- This may be done with whatever kind of collar, whether a buckle, slip / DD, or prong, even including an electronic one, without employing any heavy-handed methods like hanging or medium-to-high-stim at all

 Quote: Duane Hull

Most of us don't live in a wide open area such as you. Almost everyone here lives in area that is more densely populated than you're used to, and compliance with verbal commands can be a life-safety issue, or it can mean preventing an issue that could get your dog removed from your home...

YEPPERS Thanks, Duane!

I'm glad that the DD collar function of being a backup to the prong (which do open at bad times) has been explained.

I'd really like to see this dog tired out with some backyard exercise before the walk. Amazing how this reduces pulling.

Ria, I skimmed all six pages, but I'm still not sure whether or not you have either of the two beginner marker DVDs. Or have you marker-trained before? As several folks have pointed out, marker training is brain-tiring to the dog (as well as satisfying), and brain-tired is a wonderful accompaniment to body-tired. "A tired dog is a good dog" refers to both!