Agree 100% with Candi.

House manners and that "daily routine" should still be all about consistency.

I STILL expect a lot out of a pup and markers in the day to day activities is still first and formost for starting the foundations for future "training".

If I never compete again with a dog I still want a great truck dog that goes anywhere and everywhere with me as nothing more then a well mannered buddy.

Thank you Mike, Candi and Bob! Appreciate all your advice and will be using them daily! I really appreciate your time in answering my million questions/and reading my whining!

Well Mike, he has gone 4 days now without touching a bite of food..and when he doesn't eat he refuses to drink. I don't think he is going to accept the 2 feedings..I even leave the room to give him incentive, but he just turns and lays with his back to the bowl. And than when he gets the evening meal, of his morning meal, he lays there without even getting up and shivers for the entire evening.. This dog is driving me bonkers.
We had tried this previously, and I ended up quitting myself and went back to feeding the one meal after he starved himself for 7 days.. He has waaay more willpower than I.. I have never met a dog as stubborn as this.. I tried adding wet food to the morning only meal to give him incentive, and he did eat it, but still laid there shivering for hours..

To add, I do after a bit take him out and have him join me in my daily shoveling and bringing in the wood, but than he sits and shivers beside me.. I am at a loss on this behaviour. I have brought in his big bed in hopes he would relax a bit, but the minute he is off it he is back to shivering.. And I am not sitting in the house all day so he can lay on his bed..and we can't leave him alone in the house because he immediatly runs around pulling stuff off of couches and tables..

Offer the food as part of training sessions after your release command. Dogs that start to see their release word as a positive thing will often start taking food because their brain is getting that rush of "good thing" feelings. Offer from your side with your body angled away from him so there's less pressure around it.

I wish you were anywhere near me. I'd love to work with your boy.

So sorry Becky you'r having such difficulties with your Jazz.

There were many great advices in this forum. What I kept in mind without re-reading were Kelly's contributions . Example: "Every step Shyner took required time, patience, and consistency. Lots of time was spent just developing the bond - sitting with her talking softly, giving belly rubs, ear scratches, etc. She used to hide behind the bed - between the bed and the wall - when she was scared. It was her place, and I never took it away from her." - "Watching her slowly open up and be a dog was worth every single painstaking step."


Perhaps if you read her description of her experience with Shiner again you might find it very helpful for your dog.

Creating a bond is the absolutely necessary fundament we need with our dogs. You spoke recently: "He will run after the 4 wheeler." Well, why? He must have  some motivation to do this. Perhaps you can create thoroughly a situation like or similar to this (of course in a safe space and manner) he might become motivated too. He might even feel fun and this would help for your relationship.

Or Duane: " One of the most significant roles that I play in my dog's life is that of provider, and she knows where to find me when she wants something. Once you develop that level of relationship, then you can start to expect or even demand more. " (An advice which I understand meanwhile, how it is meant.) 

Then all the contributions about management, basic house rules, but no formal training yet.

Or Christina Lockard: "Why not try having almost no expectations."  This seems to me in the case of Jazz outstandingly important. For me it is now written bold in my head too. Not no expectations, but almost no. Trying to percieve the tiniest improvement and mark/reward this will encourage the dog. Trying this patiently and consistently he will start to understand he's done something which is desired from you. Even if he doesn't accept food as reward yet, he will hear your praise, your happy voice, feel your enthusiasm.

This is the way it goes with dogs. Dogs who have not had to suffer in the past, are of course much  more self confident and learn everything quicker. I don't mean formal exercises, but things which contribute to a good bond, and management. Jazz like my Charlie will need much more time for everything and we have to be prepared to accept some disappointment. I sometimes expected that his fully understood something after having reacted correctly a few times.

But suddenly he had forgotten everything. (Which certainly was a wrong interpretation on my part) Then we had to restart on a lower level again. But some time later he remembered or - how can I know! - was more motivated or my reaction had unconsciously been different. I'm sure, dogs feel when we are disappointed.


Well I will stop now. I cannot  quote here every one who has given good advices. This whole topic is full of them and is worth to be read various time. I'm only talking so much because the situation Becky/Jazz touches me deeply and because I've also learned a lot for myself and my Charlie.  

Thanks Christina!! I leave the room when I get frustrated.. And start baking, nothing like kneading dough to work that off! I am using the words good to mark and okay to release, I just don't undertand all the shivering based around meals.
I wish we could use the four wheeler, he was so good off leash for that, On friday I took him with the skidoo, in the bogan, and let him out to trot back, and he ran away into the bush. He ignored the recall, which he has never done outside before, he did look at me as he turned tail.. Instead of chasing him, I hit the gas and left him behind..and he came back and followed me home. He won't be off leash again, as we have too many wolves around to risk him taking off again..

Cathy, I would love that too! Somethings are so much better learned in view! I think I may look for some classes to attend with him when we go for holidays south this summer. Even if he is just there to watch other dogs in action.

Last night was just frustration talking.. I hate seeing him go to bed hungry, tho I know in the end, he made that choice not I. Thanks again everyone!!

Becky go on, I can feel that you're full of the best will. The shivering you wrote about is really sad and feels very strange to me. But even you, who knows him, can not know the why. I think you must be caught in a lot of guesses. He must have made experiences which he will not forget so easily. So difficult to bear, when we don't know the reason.
Best of course would be to find a professional, who deserves this name. But how find, how know which one is really experienced for such cases. Also a question of the region. Same for me.. You may have doubts, frustrations etc. but it comes clearly over to me that you're trying the best you can. Believe me with your atitude you'll make it. Show him your happiness whenever he gives the slightest sign of comfort or fun whatsoever. This was at least in my case with Charlie the behavior which worked the best.
I know we cannot compare two different cases, but working with Charlie only with the expectations we have learned are adapted to him, was the start of changing the value of our togetherness.
I hope very much to hear from you two again, little improvements, little reversions, but in the end you'll have a happy dog.

 Quote: Becky Niedbalka

Well Mike, he has gone 4 days now without touching a bite of food..and when he doesn't eat he refuses to drink. I don't think he is going to accept the 2 feedings..I even leave the room to give him incentive, but he just turns and lays with his back to the bowl. And than when he gets the evening meal, of his morning meal, he lays there without even getting up and shivers for the entire evening.. This dog is driving me bonkers.
We had tried this previously, and I ended up quitting myself and went back to feeding the one meal after he starved himself for 7 days.. He has waaay more willpower than I.. I have never met a dog as stubborn as this.. I tried adding wet food to the morning only meal to give him incentive, and he did eat it, but still laid there shivering for hours..

Forgive me, but I just can't remember. Have we ever discussed on this board exactly what you are feeding him? I'm not sure if it's relevant or not, but at this point, I'm curious.

He refuses to eat anything but Kirkland chicken and rice formula, we tried raw, and numerous brands, mixed in his food, he is picky beyhond belief. I did not offer him a morn meal today, so this evening he ate and drank. The morning feeds will have to go, I can't have a dog starving himself in the middle of winter, at -30C temps..if that bowl goes down before supper he will refuse to eat, today was day 5.. I have to say, he did amaze me on that!