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Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Your post earlier said that "access to the flock" (I believe is how you put it) is one of the ways in which he controls the rewards. That sounds like -P to me.

I was speaking in general terms when I wrote that. I don't know if Manfred Heyne withholds "access to the flock" as a -P or not. I didn't see it in Ellen's writeup that I provided an excerpt from.

Laura

I'm sorry I haven't read this 3 page thread thoroughly but I would like to say that there is no doubt a reward/ punishment relationship in sheep herding that has nothing to do with a "primary power of praise" (only secondary). I do know that a lot of herding dogs are without a doubt sensitive dogs making fit for a lot of single event learning (or at least very few punishment trials). I do know that many people (not saying all) do use those staffs as positive punishment. It's the drive> force> drive formula. I do know that access to the sheep is highly rewarding and does satisfy the prey drive. Being removed from the sheep is also negative punishment. I've also heard that although the dogs are bred for prey drive any BC that "molests" the live stock is done.

I'm also in total agreement with Lee in that successfully avoiding an aversive brings a very positive feeling into the picture (which is usually paired with praise).

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Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:

I forgot to comment on this before - I absolutely agree that these drives evoke strong positive emotions. I'm in total agreement. But I think where we differ is WHY they feel positive emotions. Relief from stress or fear can be a huge, powerful rush of positive feeling. You haven't come right out and said, but it seems like you feel they just like praise and it makes them happy.

IMO this doesn't esplain other behaviors. Here's another example. A friend of mine is a SAR dog handler/trainer. One of her dogs, a German bloodline GSD, has high prey drive, high food drive, high hunt/search drive, and high pack drive. This dog has gone to great lengths to steal food. This dog is a ball nut. But in a SAR context, this dog will refuse all ball (or other toy) rewards as well as food rewards. This is a highly driven SAR dog, whose only reward at the end of a mission is effusive praise. My friend will give her SAR dogs whatever type of rewards they want, and that's what this dog wants. (Her other two SAR dogs have used toy/play rewards in a SAR context).

If praise was nothing more than relief from the stress of possible disapproval, a "non-aversive state", one would think that a SAR dog with high ball drive and high food drive would rather have one (or both) of those at the end of a successful mission, rather than effusive praise. After all, there's no reason for the dog to be worried about pack leader disapproval when she's just successfully completed doing the thing she loves most in this world... searching. But praise is what this dog wants in a SAR context, and only praise.

I think praise can resonate with a dog at a much deeper level, and more positive level, than just the absence of disapproval. That assumes, of course, that the dog has the high pack drive to begin with.

Laura

Here we go again. . .I'm not moving this damn thread to the SAR section. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So let me get this straight. . .the dog has high ball drive, but doesn't want to play with a ball at the end of a search? So if you threw the ball the dog would ignore it?

I'm a little fuzzy on the description of the dog vs. the description of the behavior. . .can you explain in more detail?

I assume the handler doesn't praise the dog all along the track right? Just as reinforcement at the end. . .or maybe even along the way for certain alerts?

Hmmm. . .

Why do you think the dog is working on the search? For the praise reward or because of the high level of hunt drive. . .hunting being a self rewarding behavior?

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Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
So let me get this straight. . .the dog has high ball drive, but doesn't want to play with a ball at the end of a search? So if you threw the ball the dog would ignore it?

Yes, the dog, who is normally a ball nut, will ignore a thrown ball at the end of a SAR mission. The dog, who normally is a food hound, will not take a food treat at the end of a SAR mission. The dog is too busy loving it up with EVERYONE at the end of a SAR mission to bother with balls and food. By EVERYONE, I mean the handler, the "victim", and anyone else who happens to be there at the time.

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I assume the handler doesn't praise the dog all along the track right? Just as reinforcement at the end.

Right.

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Why do you think the dog is working on the search? For the praise reward or because of the high level of hunt drive. . .hunting being a self rewarding behavior?

The handler says that, like any good SAR dog, the dog is searching primarily because of her strong hunt/search drive. The handler says that no dog will consistently complete long, difficult SAR missions simply for whatever reward comes at the end (ball, food, praise, whatever). So yes, searching is self rewarding. The point of the reward at the end is to channel the dog's hunt/search drive into a something that is useful for us, and to more fully activate the hunt/search drive. And to tell the dog that the search is over.

Laura

Originally posted by Ellen Nickelsberg:

Prey satisfaction (control/contain) can be achieved thru a variety of behaviors. The dog's first instinct is to chase & grip -- not acceptable to the shepherd. So the shepherd sets up the boundary and enforces the rule (inside the boundary is off limits). The dog is left alone on the boundary to figure out how to satisfy its prey drive without breaking the rule -- here there is one brief period of conflict until the dog figures it out. Hi Ellen,

Can you explain to us how the shepherd sets up the boundry and enforces the rule in most cases?

So the SAR is exactly the same as the herding. There is a high reward activity and praise is being coupled with it. Then the praise is progressively withheld in order to shape the behavior. Then because of the withheld praise acceptance over the probably long difficult track there is a huge outpooring of excitement when it is given back at the end. There isn't a difference between the SAR example and the herding one.

Given, that is a pretty good example of a dog that is an extreme praise hound, but that may be as close as any dog can get. The praise itself doesn't mean anything to the dog, only by the associations with working and social interaction does the praise become something with significance. If that handler were to praise the dog effusively and constantly along the track you wouldn't see that reaction. (and the dog wouldn't work as well either because the added secondary motivation to maintain pack acceptance wouldn't be there)

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Originally posted by Laura Sanborn:

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The handler says that no dog will consistently complete long, difficult SAR missions simply for whatever reward comes at the end (ball, food, praise, whatever). So yes, searching is self rewarding.

YES!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The same for herding. The same for tracking. The same for every activity coming out of the dog's natural instincts. This exactly illustrates why a real working dog MUST be selected for high drive and natural aptitude -- not to mention selectively bred for it. The love of the work (herding, tracking, SAR, etc) is what keeps the dog going -- the reward, whatever it might be, is really incidental. In the beginning rewards (food, praise, etc) are useful in teaching the dog HOW you want the work done (shaping the natural behavior) but once the dog has learned what you want and how to work with you then the rewards are just icing on the cake. After training is completed, if a dog only works for rewards (food, praise, toys, etc), it will never work on its own and IMO does not earn the right to be called a "working dog".

Ellen

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
So the SAR is exactly the same as the herding. There is a high reward activity and praise is being coupled with it.

A lot of similarities, I agree.

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Given, that is a pretty good example of a dog that is an extreme praise hound, but that may be as close as any dog can get.

The handler I mentioned selects pups with strong social/pack drive. Then she develops it as a part of the pup's SAR training. Since few SAR handlers attempt to develop this drive to the extent that this handler does, I'm not sure how how "extreme" it is. She does say that you're less likely to find it in non-herding breeds, some of which make fine SAR dogs.

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The praise itself doesn't mean anything to the dog, only by the associations with working and social interaction does the praise become something with significance.

The "praise" this SAR handler uses is exuberant physical and verbal, roll on the ground and revel with the dog for a few minutes stuff. It's not your typical "good boy" pat on the head stuff.

The social meaning to the dog is that he has been re-united with a lost pack member, and this is the celebration of that event.

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If that handler were to praise the dog effusively and constantly along the track you wouldn't see that reaction. (and the dog wouldn't work as well either because the added secondary motivation to maintain pack acceptance wouldn't be there)

Constant interaction between handler and dog during a search just makes the dog lose his concentration. Also, too much of a good thing (constantly dishing out the reward) will de-motivate anyone (human or dog). Let's say we had a bloodhould who got a food reward at the end of a SAR mission. If we constantly fed the dog food during the search, I think you'll agree that would be counterproductive to getting the job done. Or if we had a police dog who was searching for a felony suspect, constantly giving the dog bites as he is searching may de-motivate the dog to search. Same idea.

Laura