Dave,

This may sound silly, but the way I would describe it, and the way I hear it described, has more to do with the sound to the bark. The other thing is that you can "feel" the difference. There is an intensity to the dog that isn't easy to describe. I get a gut feeling about the dog, often before it is even starting to work, there is just an air of confidence to it and the dog just looks at you different. Even with a dog that is extreamly friendly when not working. When they are relaxed they are also very aware of their surroundings, when they start to work you get a feeing that you don't want them to look at you that way. The way I look at it is that dogs are so good with the nonverbal communitation that it is easier to feel than to "see".

Richard
I have a question about that air of confidence and that look you are talking about. My daughters Rot, a family pet with sport dog background, is a very confident, easy to get along with dog. He is friendly with all the neighbors except one who my daughter suspects has teased him. When this neighbor is out Nate slowly walks over to the fence and stares at the neighbor with a look that could melt concrete. There is no barking, and Nate stays very still but if the neighbor makes eye contact, Nate will scrape the ground with all four feet, still keeping very intensive stare. There is no doubt, even to a untrained eye, Nate is trying to intimidate this guy. My question is, would you consider this to be in drive, if so, what, or is he just pissed at this guy and keeping an eye on him

I think I need to clarify when I said sport dog background, I ment dogs in his background, not him.

The "Fight-Drive Concept" is very new and still not well defined or understood... ultimately these labels are only useful if they help training in some way.

There is no way of knowing what a dog is thinking via the internet. To me it sounds like territorialism in a calm, confident dog.

Oldearthdog,

My guess is that this is a dog that at least has potential. When dealing with "Fight Drive" there seems to be a component of experience involved. With that in mind it would take the dog having experience to develop it if it is there.

If there is an interest or if there are aggression "problems with the dog, it may be worthehile to train this dog. The reason I say that is with a dog that is territorial, and has the potential for fight drive, the training will give the dog control that you may not otherwise be able to develop. Dogs tend to learn from experience, the training provides the dog a safe place to get that experience and to learn what is desired from him.

The dog is a five year old,intact, male and my daughter, who weighs ten pounds less than the dog, has great control over him. I used to teach ob and my daughter really has the instincts for it. He is very strong willed, friendly, and has never shown any agression to anyone except this neighbor. With my grandkids, 3 and 1, and their friends he is very adoring. When he is with the kids, he will lay down and let them climb all over him. my daughter say when the kids are with him he gets his goofy look. I have seen it and it is pure contentment. He acts very dignified when he meets new people but soon either wants to play with them or just ignores them. I think he reads people very well. Overall a great dog. I think he has the potential to do any thing but my Daughter, with two little girls, is happy with just a great dog.

He has never had any experience to bring out his fight drive but as you say, I think the potential is definitely there.

Dave
I don't think it is terratorialism because in my daughters neighborhood, kids and people come and go in their yard all day. It's just this one guy and my daughter has found empty beer cans in the yard and they are this bums cheap brand.

Getting back to the topic of fight drive... are there any other cues that show a dog is in FIGHT as opposed to prey?

So far, it has been suggested that a dog may appear to be more calm and confident... anything else?

Bingo, you hit it on the head, Richard. What Kevin calls defense, most of us would call fear biting and we all disparage that type of work, but his fight is our defense. Semantics.

No, what most people do is work the dog in either defense or fight without regard for what the dog is doing. Many people force a dog into self defense even if they can work in fight drive because it seems to be the thing to do these days. Much of the common work being done uses defense to load the dog in a attempt to acheive high degrees of barking at the blind and to force better grips from the dog (this usually backfires if the decoy in the trial actually tests the dog since the grips will slip but we see less and less testing of the dog any more and a lot of helpful trial helpers).
What has happened is most people feel that if the dog is forward with their defensive reactions it is a good thing and especially if the dog is high in prey to layer over it they can train this way.
Is it irrelevant? No, because a great number of people flock to such dogs for breedings or puppies and they are the wrong dogs for breeding.
As well, these dogs pose problems in practical work, which should be the goal of a good breeding program and of the selection in the sport that is the test for the breeding program.