One other quick point...since you seem to keep mentioning 30-40 times pulling on the leash. If you have to correct that many times you need to learn how to give a correction. I don't know of anyone who knew how to give a proper correction have to correct that many times to be the leader.

All I can say it was not a plesant sight. I do not want to debate the incident as again I am a fan of his training. I will get the full details and get back to you though. I think poeple are closing thier minds and making a picture of a horrific picture of dogs being abused, this just ain't so. I will agree that Edgar is the only person that I have seen start a dog with a bit of food and a sharp collar and have the dog working. Maybe an ouch or two but that is it. Speaking with him he will also tell you as many have said, that some dogs cannot take complusion with any prong. If the dog can take a tight fitting prong around the ears, then a sharp-prong loosley is no worse unless the trainer goes to town on his kneck. In alot of cases it makes the postion of the handler clearer with less conflict. But just because someone uses a sharp-prong does not mean they are abusing the dogs. You cannot train a top level sport dog, with no pressure. And a sharp-prong is no worse then the electric. You can go up with the pressure or down. Really any form of Ob. work will need pressure at some point. You can bank on that. No pressure, means no reliabilty in alot of cases. Some dogs may not need a ton of pressure, but at some point it is required in the end of the learning and proofing phase of training. Anyone that thinks diffrent is fooling themselves or very lucky.

I agree with Shanzuare Girl Deenna(spelling????sorry). You must use judgemnt or seek it out.
Todd that is exactly my point. Some dogs you cannot get through to them with a choker, or regular prong. Then in this case a sharp-prong would be in order. People that are against the sharp-prong are the same people that are jerking there dogs senseless with a choker. People that need to seek out knowlege and learn what is correct and what is not. I suppose people are going to post exactly, the sharp-prong is wrong.LOL.

SOme dogs you canot get through to them with a choker, or regular prong. Then in this case a sharp-prong would be in order. Like I said a few posts ago, if this is the case, you got the wrong dog for the sport. Don't you think that the manfactures of Prong collars would supply pre-sharpend collars if they were ok and accepted to use?

People that are against the sharp-prong are the same people that are jerking there dogs senseless with a choker. This is way off base man... not even close....

I like most of your thinking Mike, but this sharpend prong bit is just wrong man. You seem like a smart fella, can't you think of another way?

Mike, What part of my post are you agreeing with? I say I do not agree or condone this...

And, you don't want to know how I correct males for misspelling my name... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To quote Bernhard:

Whenever I am going to train an exercise, I go to my garden. Drinking a whiskey, smoking my pipe and think of all the ways I know how to train that exercise. Some of the ways are not so nice for the dog. Some of the ways are not so nice for me. I know of them, but I don't use them.

I think that is the case here. I know of the sharpened prong. However, I won't use it.

Shanzuare Girl.......Hmmmm, has a tribal flair to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Deanna, the dog that you cared for, whoever did this is off his or her coup! This is clear abuse to the animal. I agree that this is wrong, and sad.
Again I was sharing idea's and hope people don't think I draw blood onmy or others dogs when I train. I think that it would b eeasier to demonstrate what I am writting then to write it. ALot of wha tis posted is the extreme. This can be said of all training tools. And the point of pre-sharpening the collar, it has only been in the the last 5 years that I have seen pinch colars even sold in pet shopd. ALot of regular people cringe at the sight, they would probaly lose thier bowels if it was sharp.
I do still do not think people have a clear picture of what I am talking about though. It would be nice to hear what Ed thinks of this. How about it?

Hey Todd, what does Benhard think of the sharp-collar?

Haven't asked him, however, my guess would be it is a method he knows about but doesn't use.