Well now you have really opened up the PITA, no one will shoot straight here because if they do, they will get hammered - bad dog, bad training, bad this and that but lets see who does not care to be labelled “the weakest link” – and goes first.

But I would like to start by saying, that the responsible trainer would aim to train a dog with a controlled bite, the severity of a dog bite should be proportional to the amount of resistance or fight the assailant puts up, dogs should never be trained or encourage to savage people. But in the same breath they should be able to bring the fight to the fighter and win. This can be done very quickly, we require a controlled bite which takes a lot of time – and training – and a well bread dog like Robert mention to pull this act off, a x and y = a if you may. Any thing else just wont do.

We here in South Africa have to train bite and hold, because we have more violent crimes and criminals that any where I know or heard of, so the dog must go in and hold, for his and his handlers safety- but yes it does not happen all the time every time, when the dogs are young, they will not go on command alone they would need a queue to bite a guy with out a sleeve that is standing dead still, not shouting or screaming. Not all though, but yes sum, you need to shake the arm or threaten, before they react.

But after the second and third live bite this kicks in for the one’s that did not get it from the word go – the percentage of dogs very from course to course, breed to breed and in general with handlers that are not aggressive. vs. aggressive handlers.

So yes with time it escalates in to a dog that will bite all the time every time - Almost

Well, I don't know about going out on a limb or revealing the weakest link, but I believe that there are more dogs / K-9 teams out there that don't or won't engage the bad guy like most folks would expect. Our experience had been similar to Reineir's. First or even second time deployed things don't go as expected but things typically change after that. Often times what would be best for the dog from a training perspective is not what happens in the field. From a confidence perspective a real prey oriented dog would benefit from a fleeing suspect running out in the open not an aggressive individual ready to take the fight to the dog.

I will say that my training focus has changed over the last few years. We do a lot more muzzle, ground fighting, hidden sleeve work. I have not abandoned the idea of well controlled social working dog. However, our training scenarios are MUCH more focused on taking it to the bad guy.

I guess my point to all this is that there are many dogs out there even with training that lack the confidence to truly engage a man.

Geel and Howard wouldn't training the Civil aspect of bite work bring about a bite without the sleeve? I think this type work and muzzle (with a bite afterward hidden sleeve) without a doubt would teach a dog that once the command isn given to bite, he gonna take a bite even if hit or kicked, just like in training.
Espeicailly when the dogs sees that what a real bite can do. Not many people really thrash around with a dog attached to their arm like they do in a sleeze, he'd tear your muscle right off your arm.

I think civil, muzzle and sceniro training almost garanteeds a bite if the dog successfully completes this course, now sometimes like Commander Geel stated this can border on savaging a human, as in how Howard trains, I assume. Howard I am assuming this is not the clean bites of the sport world (which I am impressed with), you are getting down and dirty.

With out training a bark and hold, the dog feels that the fight is on.

I am adverse to training targeting the humans gential, face or throat. I don't mind thighs and stomach or back, in a real fight the arms may not be immeadiately available. So I don't beleive in playing fair or clean bites if they don't stop the guy. A dog circling a guy with his hands held over his head is not what I want, some dogs have done, trained only to bit the arms.

I do want a clean out, forced or on command.

I agree Robert very precise and clean post. I wish I could have said it that way. But thats the difference in training years.

Originally posted by Alan Bliven:
That brings up the question, how many sport trained and protection trained dogs that bite a helper with a sleeve or body suit will bite a bare armed person on command when their handler is threatened in real life, and the bad guy doesn't present a sleeve or body suit for them to bite? IMO, unless the sports include these kinds of tests, we may never know. I, honestly, don't see a point in doing protection training if it's not realistic, even if it's just for sport. Since sports like Schutzhund play such a huge role in our breeding programs, I would want the sport to be as realistic as possible so we get the best results. I wouldn't want people breeding solely for sleeve biters, but for man-stoppers. Criminals don't always work in prey drive.

Mike and Don

This is the crocks of the dilemma, the closest thing to a real “working bread” dog is a pink breed – I think – but in my humble view breeders are responsible for the breeding of the New age GSD – a schutzhund designed / bread dog labelled a working dog – I have yet to see the dog that is bread for protection and police work only that comes from a all pink line, with good nerve, build, drive, and sober temperament they always lack one component.

In this instance the South African gene pool with GSD’s are left un touched, we either get good or bad dogs, nothing in between, because schutzhund trainers and dogs are far and in between around here, so you can easily go to a pet shop and buy a dog with great almost every thing here.

And like with ammunition the man stoppers out there, it seldom stop the man cold in his tracks, in my opinion they are really just a better design round rather than a bigger calibre, but yes the situation will dictate, what it will take to stop a man or not. But this assumption alone is not safe. if drawn through to a dog, it’s kind of the same it’s not always the bigger dog that will stop the man but the smaller dog that will fly in to him and break a collar bone whilst taking him down – or not

I would not see my protection dog as a man stopper, rather a indicator to a treat – the early warning system - and a take down means, or a handbrake when I need it or order it to do so – so that I may escape and evade or attack and restrain, arrest etc which ever is applicable.

A dog application is some time’s far to overrated, but yes the dog that fights a human is a dangerous animal that will tear you apart like a great white, so we have to find balance here, you can not have the one side filled up and the other side light on a scale, it has to balance out, so with effect, a good dog needs every thing to be averaged out, they say that a good GSD is never first in any sport or test but he is always the second choice in any situation and all other thing a man wants in a good protection dog. The best all rounder.

If one protects your dog first and do not let the servants, family and friends get to tease him until he is around nine months old, he will turn out great, but many don’t do this, the servants bash the dog over the head when he tries to play tug with the broom, the neighbours children tease the dog, the gardener gives him a hose down, while he is pushed in to a corner, the wife slaps him in to kingdom come if he jumps up, or goes for the dress, so yes the poor dog is totally confused – and still the owner thinks the dog will protect him, it’s a little bit more complicated I think.

I read all the posts, and thanks, but it just proves one thing EGO and PERSEPTION are the two factors that makes us decide, we seldom weigh the truths

From that website - A dog bite claim can involve hundreds of thousands of dollars when the victim is disfigured or disabled. The liable person or business might not have enough money, assets or insurance to pay the claim. As a result, the victim will have to choose whether to continue pursuing the claim; if so, then the liable party will have to consider filing for bankruptcy.

Damn that scares the crap out of me, with all these Crocodile dungees and Crok hunters walking around. I'm gonna have to stop being polite.
Its not "No you can't pet my dog", Its "Hell no you can't pet him and if you try. Its me and you".

I've always said that I don't won't my dog to have to bite someone. But there many crazys people out there, just asking for it.

After watching a group of trainers work towards a title in American Street Ring, I percieved that on the whole, these handler's dogs would engage a perp that threatened the handler. It was an interesting demonstration of K 9 drives and ability, and only a small sub set of dogs would be able to handle the stress of training at that level. But the dogs that do well in that sport would be primo PPD's.

And Reinier, we usually don't have much trouble with " the servants" handling our dogs here in the USA. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just kidding, I found the RSA a beautiful country when I was there in the late 1970's <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My name is Ram and I am from south India.Even though Alsatians are
very popular back home , we do not have "any" "professional" training
facilities for civilians. Police and military dogs have excellent
training facilities but the facilities and the trainers are not open
to the public. The few trainers I know of are quacks and abuse the
dogs. I plan to train my puppy by myself.


In this context , I would like to ask you a few questions and If you
lack either the inclination or the time to answer them , I can
completely understand. I also thank you in advance for taking the
time to read my questions.


(1) Do I have to train my dog in bite training etc(like the kind
mentioned in the Schutzhund training books.I do not have any access
to body suits , teepees etc and there are no facilities. ) if it
needs to be a good guard dog for the family and property. Also in
India there are no liability issues. If you enter my house and if you
get bit then you learned a lesson. I cannot be sued. So, my first
question is ,Assuming I have completed obedience training,food
refusal etc and constantly practice it ...do I have to go through the
bite training etc to bring out the natural protective instinct? If I
don't have to , are there any simple training exercises I can do to
strengthen the protective instinct?

(2) For being a normal guard dog for the average home,(in India this
might mean more than just alarm barking and will require confronting
and growling and biting if the guy does not get the point ) is there
a difference between males and females. Because I would like to have
a very placid and loving house pet which will be good with children
but will be suspicious of strangers.From all the reading I have
done , it seems like females have a better temperament for being a
house pet and males for protection duty. Is this a myth?

(3) Can you give me any quick tips on selecting a puppy that will
grow up to be a loving house pet (I know this involves constant
training and establishing the pack order ) , but will be aloof and
watchful of strangers and WILL BITE if need be. Are there any traits
I could look for in a puppy. Can you give me some "expert" tricks?( I
have read about the puppy selection tests that guage their
curiosity,courage,inquisitiveness,willingness to follow you around
etc.)


any help is much appreciated

(1) Do I have to train my dog in bite training etc.I do not have any access
to body suits , teepees etc and there are no facilities. ) if it
needs to be a good guard dog for the family and property. So, my first
question is ,Assuming I have completed obedience training,food
refusal etc and constantly practice it ...do I have to go through the
bite training etc to bring out the natural protective instinct? If I
don't have to , are there any simple training exercises I can do to
strengthen the protective instinct?

Okay, Ram - on the equipment first of all - by teepee do you mean the blind that the helper hides in at a schutzhund trial? If so, you don't need this since this is simply part of the trial routine called "running the blinds" it's kind of obedience work within the protection phase of the trial since the dog must search all the blinds (6??) before it finds the helper - so this doesn't have much to do with training a personal protection/guard dog per se.

Secondly, even if you had other equipment such as suits, sleeves, scratch pants etc you still couldn't train you dog in bite work on your own - this is for the very logical reason that you don't want you dog to fight YOU - so you would need an experienced trainer to wear the sleeve/suit to train your dog. There are other reasons why you need more than one person, but the above reason is one of the more obvious.

If the primary purpose of the dog is to stay behind the fence, you MIGHT be able to get away with just relying on the TERRITORIAL aggression of your dog - this is not the same as the fighting drive displayed by some dogs in bitework
on the field. As other posts throughout this board indicate, even on their own turf many dogs can be pressured into submitting/fleeing by an experienced bitework trainer who in these mock scenarios pretends to be a criminal entering your property - luckily for us law abiding folk not all criminals are aware of this - some may decide to try another house if they see a GSD/dobermann/rottweiler etc behind the fence - the dog itself might even be from show-bloodlines (dogs bred for appearance not temperament - therefore even less likely to defend you) - but again many people don't even know there is a difference - so if the dog is just going to sit behind a fence all is not lost!
Training food refusal is a very good idea - but do you know how to do it? One method I have heard is to use a e-collar - do you know the idea behind this method??

(2) is there
a difference between males and females. Because I would like to have
a very placid and loving house pet which will be good with children
but will be suspicious of strangers.From all the reading I have
done , it seems like females have a better temperament for being a
house pet and males for protection duty. Is this a myth?

Ram, dogs from working bloodlines are generally very playful and enthusiastic, they might not be placid! If young children are around the dog - then supervise! Don't rely on the good temperament of the dog as accidents do happen sadly. Most obvious difference between males and females is size. A bit of a generalisation, but males probably will be a bit more of a handful to handle, a female might be a little less likely to try and dominate you and/or other family members but this is only a generalisation - certainly not 100% accurate for ALL dogs.

(3) Can you give me any quick tips on selecting a puppy that will
grow up to be a loving house pet (I know this involves constant
training and establishing the pack order ) , but will be aloof and
watchful of strangers and WILL BITE if need be. Are there any traits
I could look for in a puppy. Can you give me some "expert" tricks?( I
have read about the puppy selection tests that guage their
curiosity,courage,inquisitiveness,willingness to follow you around
etc.)

Ram - no guarantee that an untrained dog will bite you need a trainer as I mentioned above (if possible). As for puppy tests pups are way too young to try and assess fighting drive - but look for pups from working bloodlines/pedigrees if any are available in your region - once you find such a litter (if possible) try to pick a pup that is very playful, confident in meeting with you and playing with you as a stranger, a pup that likes to chase things around (gives some indication of prey drive)and is very "mouthy". Consistent training will help your dog become a good pet since training frequently will help the dog bond with you as well as learn who wears the pants..so to speak.

I'm sure other board members can give you much better advice, the above are just some general points to consider.