Well....that goes both ways. They're offering you a dog with *horrible* scores for $5500, which is way out of line in my book. With those scores, that's a $4,000. dog until proven otherwise.
Just my opinion, of course.

I thought the scores were less than desirable too, but since I've never done this before, I didn't know that the price was actually too much. Since most of the dogs I've been looking at have started at $8,000 and gone up from there, I thought this dog was priced decent. $4,000 was the figure I was thinking of, but should I offer, say $3,500 and go from there, or should I just come out and say it like you did, Will?

We may go out there this weekend to see him. What should I be looking for?

Kristen,

5-2 and 5-4 mean that the dogs were linebred. 5-2 would mean that Fero (in this case) is in the 5th generation of Orry's pedigree on the "top side of the pedigree" (sire's side) and he is also in the 2nd generation of Orry's pedigree on the "bottom side of the pedigree" (dam's side.)

(The sire's side of the pedigree is always on top and the dam's side is always on the bottom.)

"Control issues" can mean a variety of things (and be attributed to a number of different things) but generally speaking, it means that the dog does not exhibit a tremendous amount of controlability in obedience (take a look at his scores <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). This could be due to poor training, handling or the dog's disposition.

This is not NECESSARILY a bad thing, depending on the reason for it.

He has an interesting pedigree. Some Czech, some West German. Some interesting dogs there. Fero, Troll, some Maineiche dogs. A couple of things about his paperwork, FYI. His title SVV1 is the Slovak version (roughly) of a SchH 1. His conformation rating is Velmi Dobry, which is the rough equivalent of the German Ser Gut or Very Good. The paperwork lists Orry's littermates names (under Surodenci, on the bottom right. They all start with "O".) Do a search and see what (if anything) those dogs have accomplished or ask the breeder/vendor. It'll give you an idea of what Orry's MAY be capable of.

Finally, as Will said, please take an experienced working dog trainer/handler/helper with you (SchH, KNPV, Ring, Police K-9, etc) to look at the dog BEFORE you buy him. On paper, he looks "okay", though his scores are a little low. You never REALLY know until you have seen, touched and watched the dog work in person.

Good luck.

Well, for a ppd, here's what *I* think the standard is for the ideal ppd at a fair price:

Dog titled in *some* venue, SchH I is fine. ASR, PSA, or Ring Sport would also be acceptable.

Dog healthy, hips good, no older than four years old in most situations.

House broken. Socialized to the degree requested/ required by the client ( this will vary, of course by client request and can affect the price of the finished dog )

Dog competent in the various tasks needed by a ppd ( this will also vary. Need a "Dog-o-Death" for hard-core protection? You're going to pay more and the dog's ability to be in contact with the general public will go down a bit - that's the reality of ppd work and anyone that is telling you different is...well...selling you something. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> )

Price for a sound dog is this category? I charge between $9,000 and $11,000. The price will increase with different training requested by the client.
And the ppd vendor should be spending a *ton* of time with the prospective client - buying a ppd is a serious step and should be treated as such by both the client and the vendor.
And I am sick of seeing these dogs sold at $12,000 + and not being able to do half of what I just indicated. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
And these vendors selling 25k ppd's? Proof positive that there's a sucker born every min.

Believe me, the *majority* of my clients started off as their first step at other vendors and stopped their purchase when they actually saw the dog offered. I cringe when I think of the less informed people that went ahead and bought the dogs that smarter people passed on. *Sigh*


A little note - know what the number one reason for the return of a ppd is?
Stupid family members. That's the absolute truth. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

OOOh OOhh! I found a breeder/trainer that's only about an hour away. I spoke to him on the phone and he has a few dogs (both Czech, Slovak, and West German lines) that he uses as breeding stock, and has lots of references, mostly police departments for whom he's supplied dogs. He said he had one pup from his last litter (father is Slovak and mother is Czech/West German) left, and he's planning on breeding his Czech male to his Czech female when she comes into season again in about September. He said he doesn't like to have more than one litter on the ground at one time (good, in my book). This guy being so close would allow me to get a puppy and work with him on getting the dog trained for PSA or personal protection work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He has over 35 years of experience training police dogs, and he explained his training methods to me (which are much like Ed's, except he starts puppies out on a table, teaching sit, down, and stand using treats and praise). I like that he uses no corrections until the commands are understood.

He said that I could get a puppy at 8 weeks, and take it home and socialize and imprint it to us and my other dog and cat, until about 16 weeks, then I could take it back up to him for however long, for training (going up there once a week or so while the dog is there). That would be great!

Oh, and his prices? The Czech pups are $800-$1000 (I'm not sure what the factors are, but that's what he gave me). The Slovak/Czech/West German pups (there's one left of those) are $350-$500.

I would wait for another litter. It's usually not a good idea to buy the "leftover" puppy, even from good lines. I did that once and learned my lesson!

I agree with Stacie on waiting for another litter. With all this shopping for a GSD I am just curious, have you considered this guy named "ED"? Heard he has some nice lines... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So do a few of the others that post on here.

GOOD LUCK AND CONTINUE HAVING FUN SHOPPING.. SOUNDS LIKE THIS DOG WILL BE A LIFE TIME COMPANION OF YOURS... SO IT IS IMPORTANT YOU GET THE RIGHT ONE. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kristen
I just wanted to let you know that I am on a waiting list for a leerburg puppy. One of the main reasons is the fact that I know I will get a good pup. I'm sure I could find a good pup for less than 1800.00 but maybe I'm to lazy & it's not worth the risk of not getting what I want.

To play the Devil's Advocate though - sometimes it's the pet quality puppies that sell faster than the hard working type puppies.
Ironically, I still have what I consider the best male from my litter still at home, he reminds me totally of Fetz as a puppy. But I've had several prospective buyers tell me that he was just too much dog for them, and they took the mid-level puppies. Eventually a handler looking for a hardcore dog will come and snatch him up, it's just a matter of fitting the right handler to the right dog ( although I suspect I may hold on to him, he's got all the indications of a working candidate for the intense stuff that I do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )
So it can be harder to place the best puppy sometimes in intense high-drive working litters.
Soooo....it might be worth your time to take a look at that "leftover" there.....ya never know! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />