 Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: Anne Vaini ]
#80816 - 08/22/2005 02:01 PM |
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The difference between a prong collar and a chain/choke collar:
In Germany a study was done on 100 dogs. 50 wore prongs, 50 wore chokes. The study followed the dogs for their entire lives. When the dogs died they were autopsied.
Of the 50 wearing chokes 48 had injureies on the neck and trachea. 2 of these were determined to be from genetic factors. 46 from trama.
Of the 50 that wore prongs 2 had injuries on the neck and trachea. 1 of these was determined to be from genetic factors. 1 from trauma.
Clear?
First of all, I'm a big fan of the prong collar for my Tibetan mastiffs, so this post is not made out of bias. We had this discussion on the Prong Collar forum more than a year ago.
It appears that the "study" you reference may be a product of someone's imagination. I've seen references to it on various websites, but no one actually can put their hands on the "study" in German or English. I would love to have a copy of the study in either language.
Intuitively, the "results" make sense to me, but I think that someone probably made it up to justify the use of the prong to people who cringe whenever they see them. Until someone can produce an actual copy of the study, I'm afraid that I, at least, will have to consider it apocryphal.
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: Bryan Veis ]
#80817 - 08/22/2005 02:11 PM |
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I was searching for it yesterday. The copy I was given in print did have source by I don't have that copy to confirm it. I found references to a trainer who used the "study" in a seminar. I was searching the AVMA site and the german equivalent - now I could have missed it there! - as well as online. I will contact the person who gave me that tidbit originally to see if he knows the source. I am trying to mail down a reference so I can use it in a pamphlet I am writing for a humane ass. (Most of the pamphlet says to visit this site <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> 
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: Anne Vaini ]
#80818 - 08/22/2005 03:49 PM |
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Pretty lame study if you ask me, never heard of any neck or back injuries for dogs trained by chokes. I guess if you constantly jerk around your dog with great force in a choke, injuries could probably happen, just like a prong could be a cruel tool used by persons don´t knowing what they are doing, but then it´s not so much about the collar itself, more the person behind it.
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: Anne Vaini ]
#80819 - 08/22/2005 03:58 PM |
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Stig - I've met a couple dogs with trachea problems from chain collars (and I own one) so I know that it's a real problem, especially in dogs under 30 pounds.
I have found four sources siting the study to come from a seminar by Anne Marie Silverton of England. Has anyone heard of this name?
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#80820 - 08/22/2005 05:40 PM |
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Never underestimate a human beings capacity for stupidity <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have had both on my neck and can tell you that the choke doesnt choke but does smack the crap out of the side of your neck. The pinch is unpleasant but has more surface area being pinched. I have no idea why anyone would need a study to tell you this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I am smarter than my dog, your just not. |
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: jeff oehlsen ]
#80821 - 08/22/2005 07:35 PM |
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Yes - and the chain collar pulls hair like none other!
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: Stig Andersson ]
#80822 - 08/22/2005 08:33 PM |
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The choke also has potential for so many more disasters. All you need is someone who doesn't know his own strength pull a light dog with little fur to the point where the dog's strangled. Chokes are terrible in the wrong hands, and there're lots of wrong hands out there.
A collar that has the ability to tighten without any end is worrisome, especially because most people out there have no clue how to properly train a dog.. if they did, choke-type collars would be reserved for people who knew what they were doing and had a true need for it. Really, I don't see how people think chokes are better than prongs.. most dogs choke horrendously on those chains, but on a prong, there's nothing. It should be obvious which is better!
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: Diana Matusik ]
#80823 - 08/22/2005 09:37 PM |
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Exactly, which is why I use a choke. It can only tighten indefinately if you are going nuts and sawing( V ) on a dog.And even then not always. When you don't know that, I would stop and think before you post that it can just tighten up indefinately without obviously going nuts on a dog. Abuse is abuse, and I guarantee that it can occur with any collar out there. if it goes around the neck it can cause damage. The other thing to consider is that the dogs neck is not the same as our neck, there is a lot of muscle there. Not that it should be abused, but it is different.
I am smarter than my dog, your just not. |
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: jeff oehlsen ]
#80824 - 08/23/2005 05:28 PM |
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Jeff, maybe I'm just paranoid but I see the potential for disaster with a collar that can tighten as a choke does, regardless of their musculature (which I do know is much more powerful than a human's). There are plenty of people out there who shouldn't be anywhere near a dog but they own them, and they may use chokes. Anyway, it is getting off the topic of prongs, and I am thinking of extreme situations. In the right hands and on the right dog, I'm sure it's another excellent training tool. I just see so much misuse potential in them, even if it IS unintentional.
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Re: A case for no prong?
[Re: Diana Matusik ]
#80825 - 08/23/2005 05:40 PM |
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As I stated in my post, if it can go around the neck it can be bad with abusive people. Hard to sharpen a choke collar, unlike the pinch. Again, abuse by knuckle heads that won't take the time to train their dog. They all want the dog perfect by 6 months. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
I am smarter than my dog, your just not. |
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