In relation to the gist of this thread, which is aggression risk involving encounters with strange dogs in public spaces, I'm wondering how much of the problems could be averted by more puppy socialization with other dogs, and what are the best forms.

I had some success using dog day care one day a week to desensitize my cattle dog, who at age 2 hit a "dominance peak" that he expressed with some snippets of aggression. At dog day care he found a few female dog "friends" and ended up indifferent to most other dogs. It took the edge off, and solved a very minor problem in an ACD that had the benefit of good socialization with adult dogs as a pup.

I note that he is quite tolerant of a neighbour's dog that was his only negative experience as a pup.

I certainly intend to use the Ian Dunbar method of socializing pups with children, which involves supervised handling of young pups by children, accompanied by very good treats.

rgds, andrew may

Hi Andrew,
I always work my dog with a long line. My issue is with those who let their dogs off AND are not able to control them. I don't let my dog play with other dogs because I want the play to come from only me. My dog is not aggressive, but the last time I went tracking a lovely person let his 2 great danes off lead while watching me track. The dogs ran at my pup, & the man sat there & smiled. I had to keep myself between those dogs & my pup. The dogs kept circling & diving at my dog. You bet your ass I started kicking those dogs to drive them away. I also complained to the park ranger, but it really doesn't do any good.

I ALWAYS have the dogs that I'm working with on a long line. If the dog is VERY trustworthy on recall, it's sometimes just a flimsy 50 footer. For me, I use a lease ALWAYS EVERYTIME. It's not just a matter of making the dog obey, often times I have utmost confidence in them. I do it because if there is a leash law (and there usually is) and my dog isn't on a leash and something happens to another dog, etc., then I am VERY liable, regardless of whether my dog instigated it. This way, if some moron who DOESN"T have control over their dog has him off leash and he comes to my dog and gets savaged...it's his fault, not the fault of my leashed dog.

It's like drunk driving...someone may swerve off the road into a drunk driver who was just sitting at a red light. Was it the drunk driver's fault that he got hit that time? No. But will he get the hell since he's drunk? You'd better believe it. He's guilty for being behind a wheel while drunk, even if he's not moving. And you're guilty if your dog's off leash, even if he didn't start the fight.

I agree with Beth that ALL dogs should be leashed in a public place where other people are allowed to have dogs. When dealing with animals, there is always the element of the unexpected even with very well trained dogs. A dog is not a robot, and even a champion can surprise you.

Also, if you can make yourself the exception to the rule, why can't the dink on the other side of the field who thinks just because his dog is friendly and can give him his paw that he's trained and therefore doesn't need a leash? Most of the difficult off-leash dogs I have to put up with are owned by people who think they have recal on their dogs and don't. If you allow exceptions, everyone will think they're the exception. They can't all be.

There are e collars and long lines, there are plenty of ways to simulate off-lead training while still having the dogs on lead. And occasionally you'll get lucky and find a friend with private property where your dog can be off leash, legally.

I'm sorry, but I deal with off-leash dogs all the time and it REALLY REALLY makes me mad. In a public place, the leash law is the leash law. Period.

And thus concludes my opinionated paragraphs of the day! I know not everyone here agrees with me on this but such is life!

Something I found usefull to work a dog off lead is the closed in tennis courts, tennis is not real popular at the park I go to. They have four courts fenced in with latched gates. The ground cover is this semi soft material so its not hard on our joints. It won't be until the middle of spring before the tennis players start to show up again

Maybe I've just completely lost it.

If an off-leash or flexi-leashed dog approached mine, in any circumstance, I'd rip the owner a new one -- and possibly the dog, too, if it tried anything. Period. Don't you DARE put my dog's well-being in jeopardy with your stupidity.

Tessie is my -everything- and I may be as soft as a grape but there is nothing I wouldn't do to prevent her from getting hurt (this is coming from someone who has stepped in front of her dog when a large, out-of-control GSD mix bolted towards her). Fortunately I can walk my dog without dealing with problems; I've only encountered loose dogs a couple of times on walks. However, when I bring her to the park in the summer for a good long trail walk, the IDIOTS with their Labs, GSDs, Poodles, whatevers on flexi leads that let their dogs bound up to everything... almost makes me wish I had a dog that WOULD rip their faces off to teach them a lesson. Almost.

My response to "is she friendly?" is always "not towards out-of-control dogs!" I may sound like a total ass, but my dog is completely horrified of boisterous, crazy dogs. (Her 'best friend' is a toothless 12-yr-old corgi cross, to put this in perspective for you.) I will not let someone's stupidity ruin an experience for my dog. When I am on the other side of a 12' wide path, I should be able to walk without getting tripped up by your dog. (If you haven't already figured it out, I am incredibly, incredibly anti-flexi. They are good as a "drag line" and that's IT.)

Long rant short, if I'm going to be my dog's pack leader, I have to defend her. I guess I come from the other side of the spectrum; my dog is 100% flight, not fight (I have seen her lift her lip at another dog twice in her seven years on this earth; Tess is a pansy, bless her heart) and if a dog approaches her, it's my dog I fear for, not the stranger's... but I'm just as vocal about it as you are.

 Quote: andrew may

In relation to the gist of this thread, which is aggression risk involving encounters with strange dogs in public spaces, I'm wondering how much of the problems could be averted by more puppy socialization with other dogs, and what are the best forms.

I had some success using dog day care one day a week to desensitize my cattle dog, who at age 2 hit a "dominance peak" that he expressed with some snippets of aggression. At dog day care he found a few female dog "friends" and ended up indifferent to most other dogs. It took the edge off, and solved a very minor problem in an ACD that had the benefit of good socialization with adult dogs as a pup.

rgds, andrew may

Although I agree with you Andrew, most doggie daycares don't accept fully intact dogs, whether male or female, for obvious reasons.

I prefer to walk my dog after work at 0230 hours when no one is out and usually have a long line on for training.

 Quote: Dennis Jones

Something I found usefull to work a dog off lead is the closed in tennis courts

That is a GREAT idea!

Katherine, I feel the same way although at this point I'd be happy to even see flexi-leads. Most people around here (it's semi-rural) don't have leashes on at all, although they'll carry one in case a cop or park ranger shows up. They make me want to pepper spray them! (The owners, not the dogs!)

I've done what Dennis does - tennis courts. All my pup's experiences with other dogs has made him bark at all dogs now. Initially walking the neighborhood, encounters with dogs that barked at him. He barked back, pulling and straining. Once at the park, one dog behind a fence of a baseball diamond started barking at him, he barked, pulled and strained. Another park incident with a guy with a large dog off leash came purposely toward us, the dog being a long distance from the owner. My pup started barking and straining. Held him tight, had to yell above my pup's barking at owner to get his dog, no reply. Continued to yell at him "get your dog, get him on a leash", he just walked ever so slowly toward us, strolling. At same time I'm trying to correct my pup (then 5 mos old), fend off the other dog who was beginning to raise his hackles. Finally the guy was close enough to call his dog and for his dog to hear and said if I would just let them play together, he was sure they'd be fine. I wonder what gave him that idea. Every experience for my pup with other dogs has gone this way.

Now I'm afraid about taking him to any pup or dog classes, which is something I planned on doing, and not sure how to go about this. At this point I wouldn't mind him being able to play with some pups sometimes, feel it would be good for him, but not sure it's even reasonable to hope for this.

If anyone has any suggestions, I sure would like to hear them. I don't know anyone with friendly large dogs, just tiny dogs, much too tiny for him (6 mo GSD) and I wouldn't trust him with them.

There is no need for your dog to socialize with anybody but your family and other pets. Teach your dog to focus on you then slowly increasing the distractions using redirection and with quick correction and even faster reward imho is the best way to get dog aggresion under control. Two of my girls are dog aggressive but they've been trained to ignore other dogs unless of course the other dog is stupid enough to get inside my dog's "queer zone" acting agressive themselve. basicaly they give the attitude they get. If you truly believe that dogs need to socialize with other dogs, do what I did, get more dogs, I have four GSDs in my household who get along just fine. Ed has an artical on how to introduce a new dog into your pack, guess what, it works, but you must be prepared to rehome one of the dogs because regardless of what you do, they just will not get along.